ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, October 9, 1999 - 05:45 am:
I am a Christian in the Army and I LOVE the Beach Boys and Brian's music. I am also a songwriter who tries to compose Beach Boys influenced music with edifying themes. Love to chat with anybody who loves the Beach Boys music and/or the Lord or are just interested email@example.com.
ByGuardian Angel on Tuesday, October 12, 1999 - 02:30 pm:
Thats good to hear. I'm also a Christian Songwriter. It's cool to hear somebody else is interested in merging Brian's music with Chrisitan themes! <!-/Post: 1322-!><!-Post: 1341-!>
By David C. on Wednesday, October 13, 1999 - 09:40 am:
A hearty "Amen" to both of you....I'm a Christian
AND a BW fan and it works for me quite well! <!-/Post: 1341-!><!-Post: 1353-!>
By Jeanne on Wednesday, October 13, 1999 - 03:59 pm:
OK, would you Christians please elaborate? <!-/Post: 1353-!><!-Post: 1356-!>
By Rick Adams on Wednesday, October 13, 1999 - 06:44 pm:
Is Brian a Christian? <!-/Post: 1356-!><!-Post: 1363-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 05:04 am:
By Christian, we mean that we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and the
saviour of humanity. He changes our hearts and rescues us from guilt, fear and
the eternal circumstances of our sins. I am very convinced that Jesus loves
Brian (he loves you, too) but I do not think Brian has realized this yet. i hope
and pray he does. I have been very blessed by much of Brian's music. Please feel
free to email me at the address above to discuss it further. Peace be with you!
John <!-/Post: 1363-!><!-Post: 1364-!>
By David C. on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 05:14 am:
As long as you are asking Jeanne, it's true,
Jesus can and does take a person's life and dramatically changes it from a life of very little hope to that of eternal confidence that there is in fact Heaven, as unfortunately there is Hell.
Jesus changed my life when I was 21 and gave me a new way to live and feel in this world.
The frosting on the cake is that God has given gifts to us all and obviously has given the abundant musical talent to Brian that keeps us all coming back for more. Who could help but love Brian for all he has given us. And how else could I or guys, like John P. help but love a God who gives such wonderful gifts to his children, Brian being only one part for a believer like me. <!-/Post: 1364-!><!-Post: 1371-!>
By Bucket T. aka Billy on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 10:52 am:
Here's an irony for us all to consider. Brian was supposedly raised in a Christian home. Some of his earliest harmonizing experiences were with Mike and others in a church group. Despite this, he found more warmth and caring in the Jewish household of the Rovells and married one of the girls. Murrays verbal and physical abuse of Brian certainly was not what any would consider "good Christian behavior." Also of importance, though, is that Brian has often spoken of the spiritual and healing qualities of music. His masterpiece "God Only Knows" was the first pop tune to actually use the word "God.!" His PET SOUNDS was supposedly a "teen age symphony" to God. Is he a practicing,"go to church on Sunday" kind of Christian? I don't know, but I doudt it. Yet, I think there is a moving spirituality in his music that transcends catagorization and doesn't necessarily plug into the norms of Christianity,as I defined it above. I don't really know you folks on this board, but I suspect that when you mention Christianity you're referring to "formalized" religion. That is not a put down, but rather a question. Is this what we expect of Brian? Thanks for letting me have my say and God Bless. <!-/Post: 1371-!><!-Post: 1379-!>
By Guardian Angel on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 02:08 pm:
I consider myself a strong follower of God, but I don't label myself as a
"Baptist" or a "Catholic". I follow what I believe in my heart.I really don't
like labels, since man put them on to seperarte himself from others who believe
the EXACT SAME THING but have different names.
I don't know exactly what religion Brian is, but he is a very spirtual person. If he believes in his heart, it doesn't matter what he labels himself. Man looks at labels. God looks at within. <!-/Post: 1379-!><!-Post: 1384-!>
By Jeanne on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 03:47 pm:
No, I know what a Christian is, I meant how are you connecting Brian's music
I'm not a Christian. The things you attribute to Jesus in your life I attribute to Brian's music in mine. I had forgotten joy and then I remembered it when I heard Pet Sounds.
And sorry, the same old arguement always stumps me: How could I help loving a God that gives such gifts? Well then how am I supposed to feel about a God that allows such abuse of his chosen child?
Brian gets me closer to God than God does. <!-/Post: 1384-!><!-Post: 1385-!>
By David C. on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 04:10 pm:
I really don't think that it's a good idea to attempt to explain the
allowance of suffering in the world today(in this forum) although I will say
that it is something that God ALLOWS for many reasons. If you could just
remember one thing from the Bible so that you might not hold Him responsible,
there is a verse that says, God is Light and in Him is no darkness. Briefly, I
can only say that it is NOT the Lord that's causing all the pain in this world.
It's fallen man and, yes, the devil known as Satan, the enemy of ALL men. Now i
realize that this is a highly debated subject, however, it is what I and many
others firmly believe.
As for any correlation between God and Brian's music, I simply mean that I believe Brian was given a very special gift and has obviously won the hearts and minds of many of us, believers as well as non-believers. My passion for Brian's music has lasted 35 years and it grows stronger all the time. I do believe that the Lord has had his hand on Brian in a very precious way and the beautiful music we get to listen to is directly because Brian has been given a gift to give to the world. But again I say this can only be a PART of the way in which I can spiritually feel good about
my life. A life without Jesus Christ for me, is no life at all. <!-/Post: 1385-!><!-Post: 1387-!>
By RJA on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 06:11 pm:
Some really cogent thoughts are being expressed on this board. My hat is off
to you people. Most boards I have visited tend to deteriorate into childish
As a Christian, I enjoy Brian's music (past and present) mostly because of the dirth of quality music that is currently on the charts. Simply put, there hasn't been anything better to come along since Pet Sounds.
Like others on this board, I really connect with Brian's music. I'm 38 and I've enjoyed his music for 25 years. Even my 12 year old son loves the Beach Boys and Brian. You can sense an authenticity there that is missing in virtually all other artists today. There's a purity there. You don't have to get embarrassed by his lyrics if there are children listening. His ability to express himself in song after song (most songwriters maybe get lucky to accomplish this in ONE song) really causes me to think that his is a God-given gift. Some might call it a curse. No question Brian is a haunted man. The genius label fits him. Perhaps, in order to be a musical genius, you have to have that "haunted" emotion.
If Brian's not a Christian, let's get him to collaborate with Glen Campbell! Glen would have an impact on him.
A final thought: Imagine how a whole new world of inspiration would flow into Brian's songwriting if he could find that long lost relationship that has been missing all his life - a relationship with Jesus. Now that would be something, wouldn't it? <!-/Post: 1387-!><!-Post: 1390-!>
By Jeanne on Thursday, October 14, 1999 - 06:38 pm:
You guys--I gotta love ya. <!-/Post: 1390-!><!-Post: 1419-!>
ByIain Boyle on Friday, October 15, 1999 - 12:06 pm:
Is Brian a church going Christian, I don't know but I do know his music is
spiritual, therefore is a connection to what ever we chose to call our God. I
believe what we call God depends on our cultural background and each culture is
actually finding the same spirit. I had posted on another thread that I have a
friend that is into Shamanism in a huge way and after introducing her to Brian's
music she is convinced he is a shamin whether he realises it or not. Brian has
many references to the Lord in his writings both musically and what he has said
on Album liner notes.
and PS being a Christian does not mean that you are perfect just that you try to be and when you don't succeed your father (God) passionately forgives you and gives you solace in that you tried.
Love and Mercy ( a christian concept if ever I heard one)
Iain B <!-/Post: 1419-!><!-Post: 1425-!>
By Peter Reum on Friday, October 15, 1999 - 03:48 pm:
Brian recorded an a capella version of the Lord's
Prayer for the B side of Little Saint Nick which
is one of the most beautiful of their vocal arrangements. Our Prayer also expresses his Christianity beautifully.
It is well documented that the Wilsons and Loves
sang together at church as children too. I have met very few people more spiritual than Brian. <!-/Post: 1425-!><!-Post: 1475-!>
By John W. Proctor on Monday, October 18, 1999 - 05:16 am:
Perhaps Brian was attracted to the Rovells also for their permissiveness. It
is hardly Christian or Jewish to allow a grown man to move in and sleep with
your 16-year old daughter. Ask Dr. Laura! Brian was tormented as a child, but
that doesn't excuse a life of self-indulgence and self-absorbtion, which, were
he here, he would tell us himself. The world of drugs is an inward,
self-centered world, I know. I followed Brian down the LSD road and almost never
came back. Thanks to Christ Jesus, I have my mind, a beautiful family, and i can
truly appreciate Brian's art for what it is: the sound of the human soul. All
truth is from God; that doesn't mean because a philosophy or belief has some
truth in it that it is the way God invites us to know him and be saved. That way
is through his only Son, who died willingly for all to be saved. There is evil
in the world simply because there is freedom in the world, and freedom used
unlovingly is sin.
Brian has touched the fringes of many Christian concepts, but God invites us to feast at his banquet table. God did not create Brian to be a "cork on the ocean", lost and bewildered, but what Brian yearns for in "I still dream of it." That is my belief. I will always love Brian's music, whether he elects to follow Christ or not. But I am not naive enough to blur the lines between beautiful art, good feelings, and eternal salvation. To all Brian fans, i pray for your peace and salvation, and when Brian is not a god to us, he can truly delight our souls in the proportion that God intended. <!-/Post: 1475-!><!-Post: 1485-!>
By Big Chas on Monday, October 18, 1999 - 11:47 am:
Another "spiritual" aspect is Mike's practice of TM. At one time, I believe all of the BB's tried it, but Mike has stuck with it and, I believe, is even an instructor. While not a Christian religion or even a religion at all, it's interesting that the ALL AMERICAN band looked to the East for enlightenment. Love stayed with TM even after others(Beatles) abandoned it. I don't know what any of this means;just thought I'd jump in. <!-/Post: 1485-!><!-Post: 1505-!>
By RMC on Monday, October 18, 1999 - 09:39 pm:
I have deeply loved Brian Wilson's music since I was 11 (for about 24 years
now). His songs always
brought me a very special & true joy. And yes, I
am also a born-again Christian. I got saved about
10 years ago, and this has changed my life
completely. What stayed is my admiration and awe at Brian's music. Just like RJA said, there is a purity that reaches very deep within our heart and our spirit.
I am also convinced that God gave Brian a special gift of expressing love and beauty in his music, like no one else has done before. I believe if we
were able to hear the voices of angels in heaven
the only music that could ever compare down here would be Brian's music.
True Christianity does not have much to do with
"formal" or "institutionalized" religion. I used
to be religious before I got saved, went to church
every Sunday and all that, but it never satisfied me because it was like an outward ritual, but Jesus did not yet live within my heart. When I was born again it all became a very personal thing,
and now I don't go to church very often but prayer and Bible-reading is an important part of my day.
And I also pray that Brian comes to know the incomparable bliss of walking with Jesus in the garden.
Brian's music has brought so much happiness to all of us. And I would like him to have the chance to experience the ultimate happiness that comes from having a personal relationship with our Creator. <!-/Post: 1505-!><!-Post: 1525-!>
By Guardian Angel on Tuesday, October 19, 1999 - 02:21 pm:
RMC Is exactly right abpout the outward ritual. That was the point I was trying to make <!-/Post: 1525-!><!-Post: 1530-!>
By John W. Proctor on Tuesday, October 19, 1999 - 09:10 pm:
It is naive to think of "having" Jesus without Church. The church is the body
of Christ. Whatsoever we do to the least of his brothers (the church), we do to
him. To love Christ is to love and participate in the life and mission of the
church. Christianity cannot be reduced to a personal philosophy or a subjective
"me'n'Jesus" alone relationship. Jesus is in the church, the church in in Him.
Rituals are given by God to communicate the rich, intangible spiritual reality of the Divine mysteries (Baptism, Communion, kneeling, making the sign of the Cross, liturgy, hymnody, altars, etc.) We do well to receive them reverently and seek to interpret them in the light of faith before we flippantly dismiss them as "just church stuff."
Brian Wilson has a deep, sweet and creative soul. His spiritual condition is known to God, who loves him, as He does us. I know this offends some, but Jesus is still a "Stone of stumbling and a rock of offense" to many.
in His Love,
John <!-/Post: 1530-!><!-Post: 1535-!>
By john w. Proctor on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 12:05 am:
"I know so many people who think they can do it alone.
They isolate themselves, and stay in their safety zones.
Now what can you tell them?
And what can you say that won't make them defensive?
I Know there's an answer!
I know now, but I had to find it by myself...
How can you tell them...
...the way that they live could be better?"
>From "I Know There's an Answer." by Wilson/Asher
That's what I was trying to say in the post above.
In Christ's Love,
John <!-/Post: 1535-!><!-Post: 1537-!>
ByJohn w. Proctor on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 03:03 am:
"I know so many people, who think they can make it alone.
They isolate themselves and stay in their safety zones.
Now what can you tell them?
And what can you say that won't make them defensive?
I know there's an answer; I know now, but I had to find it by myself..."
Brian Wilson/Tony Asher
I believe that answer is Jesus. <!-/Post: 1537-!><!-Post: 1538-!>
By Jeanne on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 04:30 am:
John, you're trying to proselytize now. That's why I didn't e-mail you, much as I like talking about Brian's music. I knew that sooner or later(more sooner than later) you'd be trying to convert me. <!-/Post: 1538-!><!-Post: 1540-!>
By David C. on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 05:05 am:
Jeanne, oh Jeanne, what's wrong with a little good news for a change? You
know it really couldn't hurt to check the Bible out for yourself. Try reading
the book of John. It's actually a very good thing to discover. No pressure of
Hey, John can't help it. It's really because he knows the good news and simply wants to share it.
By the way, I hardly know John, we are on opposite sides of the planet, but I have to say I admire him for taking a stand. I know its a BB board. We BOTH LOVE the music. It's just that, well, there's more! <!-/Post: 1540-!><!-Post: 1546-!>
By Re- Awakened fan on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 09:19 am:
Brian and his music are spiritual without a doubt. I beleive that his spirituality is the underlying reason why his music makes us feel good. Jesus Lives, no matter what formal religion you support! <!-/Post: 1546-!><!-Post: 1573-!>
By Jeanne on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 06:52 pm:
that's the point, it's a BB board. And I have read the Bible. I used to be a
Christian. It's a nice story. Actually I don't care, unless the entire board was
taken over. I was reacting to John calling someone's beliefs naive up there.
that is name-calling to me. to most people it is an insult to be called naive.
He could have made his point about ritual-and I think ritual is very important
to most people-without that.
Spirituality-who says it comes only from Jesus? Are you suggesting that Christians are the only spiritual people in the world?
And "no pressure"-- that's funny. If the Southern Baptists had political power I probably wouldn't be allowed to hold my job.
if this thread becomes just people arguing about religion, what will it have to do with Brian?
But mostly, like I said, I don't care if yall want to talk about it. <!-/Post: 1573-!><!-Post: 1577-!>
BySal Parisi on Wednesday, October 20, 1999 - 09:34 pm:
I had the wonderful opportunity to see Brian and his band in Portland Oregon
this past Sunday & Monday nights. It was spectacular.
I'd like to believe that Brian knows the Jesus of the scriptures as more than just a historical figure -- that he knows and understands the simplistic depth & beauty of John 3:16... but certainly I don't know what he believes.
The spiritual element to his music is still practically unparalled in secular pop/rock music. God works through all types of people - believers and non believers. Brian's music draws people toward questions of a spiritual element... and that is a good thing. Clearly he believes in God. Clearly his musical genius is a gift from God.
And for those of us who have been unfortunate enough to have been the edge of darkness, gazed into and walked into its' hellish abyss, to see and experience Brian Wilson's incredibly brave and heroic trek back out of the pit is just so uplifting...
I just hope he knows the grace of Jesus. <!-/Post: 1577-!><!-Post: 1585-!>
By Jeanne on Thursday, October 21, 1999 - 04:19 am:
I reread this thread and I read the red sox thread, and I want to make the point that I am not objecting to this discussion on the basis that it is off the subject of Brian. People are tying it in; I simply can't relate to the Jesus part, (the God part yes, and spirituality), but I enjoy anyone talking respectfully about BW. <!-/Post: 1585-!><!-Post: 1587-!>
By John W. Proctor on Thursday, October 21, 1999 - 04:53 am:
When I used the word "naive" I was refering primarily to myself, but yes, I
extended it to mean (IMO) for anyone. To be so awash in the waves of the
emotional richness of Brian's brilliant art that you lose sight of eternal truth
and light is surely NOT the best use of Brian's music.
Jeanne, i would be a worthless rogue and scoundrel (as well as coward) if I denied in any way the Lord Jesus who has done only good to me and never hurt me at all. He has saved my life and I am sure He is able to rescue us all if we just open our hearts up.
There is a spirituality of man, that is earthy, emotional, and stimulating and has to do with asking the deep, tough questions about pain and meaning. That spirituality that I want for us all is the rebirth of heart to the Heavenly, Good, and Fatherly love of God. It doesn't originate with us, it originates with God. That is the spirit we Christians see in Jesus. Pure unconditional love, forgiving and patient, healing us and giving us hope and courage that is supernatural, unearned, and full of love's energy.
The truth often wounds before it heals; but it is faithful to heal in the fullest, that is, the eternal sense.
"Where can I go when my fair-weathered friends cop out?
What's it all about?" Brian, from "IGIJWMFTT"
"Come to me, all you who are weary and weighted down. Take my ways upon you and learn from me,because I am modest and humble in heart. My ways are easy and my burden is light. You will find rest for your souls." -Jesus, from Matthew 11:28-30 (paraphrased by me).
"Down, lay me down, lay me down;
Lay down burden..." -from Imagination <!-/Post: 1587-!><!-Post: 1588-!>
By janes world on Thursday, October 21, 1999 - 05:43 am:
would'nt it be nice to live in the kind of world where we belong ? ....urglie...urglie <!-/Post: 1588-!><!-Post: 1630-!>
ByPete S. on Friday, October 22, 1999 - 07:04 pm:
Brothers and Sisters,
I've been a Christian since 1982.
At the time I came to Christ I was listening to:
Phil Keaggy(Play Through Me,Phil'lip Side),Keith Green -(all available at the time).
But if Brian Wilson had not shown me the "Spirituallity" of his music I wouldn't have listened to Phil or Keiths music!
I have to say that Brian definately knows Christ in fact I have a Video tape from Europe of him singing Love and Mercy live and he sings different lyrics about GOD!
I had a chance several years ago to talk to Phil Keaggy in a private setting,and I gave him a copy of the "stereo" Pet Sounds album and he in turn gave me a copy of Glassharp live on CD.
Phil claims that without Pet Sounds we would still be making "dance" pop recordings without any concepts.
By the way Phil is a friend of Paul McCartney,
and I asked him if Paul was a Christian and he told me yes!
But couldn't announce it..
Why he didn't know.
But he did say that he (Phil) and Paul prayed for Linda (this was before her death).
So in short,Brian strings through our lives,both musicially and spiritually!
I believe that he knows Christ
Your brother in Christ,
Pete <!-/Post: 1630-!><!-Post: 1634-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Friday, October 22, 1999 - 07:50 pm:
That would be incredible if true, Pete. Thanks for being a witness and a
"Christ" to our musical heroes.
I am skeptical about stars and their faith after what happened to Dylan, BJ Thomas, Phillip Bailey (EWF) and others. Perhaps it is better for them to lay low, I don't know. It would be an incomparable blessing to hear these giant artists claim Jesus in public. Phil does, as you know. My trio was his opening act in Richmond, VA in a 1991 concert. Phil Keaggy is amazing. I was into Kieth Green for a long time, but I just can't sustain that kind of hell-or-holiness zeal as a day-to-day religious experience.
Thanks for checking in, Pete. I'd love to hear more about the Europe video where Brian gives you the idea that he believes in Jesus. He also spoke of praying to Jesus in the Pet Sounds liner notes, but we all know he was not living a Christian life then. Peace be with you, and peace upon all God's children!
Johnny <!-/Post: 1634-!><!-Post: 1645-!>
By Gary L. on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 03:59 am:
Jeanne,I firmly back your points of view made on previous threads about the
religious connections here.I too,agree that spirituality doesn't necessarily
have to come only from Jesus.As much as I am open to and respect the Jesus
believers' points of view,they should be just as open to and respectful of other
religious beliefs whether it's Judaism,Islam,etc.
Bucket T.AKA Billy,correct me if I'm wrong,but it was the SMILE album,not PET SOUNDS,that was BW's teenage symphony to God.
RJA,I think SMILE was a little better than PET SOUNDS.Don't get me wrong,PET SOUNDS is great, but like Jeanne said on another thread,SMILE is INCREDIBLE. <!-/Post: 1645-!><!-Post: 1653-!>
By Jeanne on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 09:46 am:
Well, I wasn't going to get back on this thread, but since you used my
name...Actually, I don't compare Pet Sounds to Smile. Each is what it is and
each satisfies me depending on my mood.
I know that Brian believes in God, is spiritual, and wants the listener to feel loved. I want Brian to feel loved. On the Pet Sound liner notes, Brian refers to God and to "The Lord" No mention of Jesus. Has he specifically mentioned Jesus anywhere? BUT, if Brian were to become Christian, and if this was to ease his suffering and his fears, and fill him with the happiness expressed by the Christians on this board, I certainly would not complain, even though I cannot take the "Jesus road." <!-/Post: 1653-!><!-Post: 1667-!>
By Gary L. on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 01:10 pm:
Jeanne,I chose your name because we share the same opinion of SMILE-that it's
incredible,to use your own words.I wasn't saying you were comparing PET SOUNDS
with SMILE.RJA,a poster on a previous thread,said nothing musically better has
come along since PET SOUNDS.Since SMILE came after PET SOUNDS,I of course
disagreed with RJA's statement.
I hope I cleared that up for you.I hate being misunderstood!By the way,the RIO GRANDE sound bytes seem to be working a little better.I'm assuming you haven't received the first BW solo
CD yet since you haven't e-mailed me to let me know what you think of it. <!-/Post: 1667-!><!-Post: 1669-!>
By RJA on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 06:57 pm:
This is to John Proctor: I really enjoy your posts. I'm with you.
Also - regarding "Lay Down Burden" - in the VH1 video, Brian says it was written when he learned about Carl's cancer. Yet the lyrics are clearly about a guy-girl relationship. Wouldn't it have been a much more powerful song if the lyrics were clearly about his relationship to his dying (and now late) brother? Just a thought.
Lastly, I really enjoyed reading Pete S.'s comments regarding Brian's european video comments. I, too, would be very interested in learning more about that. I got into Keaggy, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Daniel Amos, et. al. in the 80's also. It's neat to know that BW & BB's influenced Phil Keaggy - a tremendous musician in his own right.
Keep up the great posts! And Jeanne - regarding Christians be the only ones who are truly spiritual - that's correct. I refer you to Ephesians 4:4 - There is one body and ONE SPIRIT...one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Furthermore, Jesus says in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." <!-/Post: 1669-!><!-Post: 1671-!>
By John W. Proctor on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 10:13 pm:
Of course you can take the "Jesus" road! Its the easiest one out there! It does not confuse or confound, requires no superior intelligence, holy qualifications, or demands on intellectual honesty. Its safe, its proven, its a happy road, and it does lead to a contentment and joy and healing that all of us need. If you find what we have found in His sweet, innocent love somewhere else, then have at it! But I seriously doubt that a person can find the spiritual, emotional and physical treasure we have found in Jesus in any other place. What you love about Brian is exponentially available in Christ. I admire you for admitting that if Jesus is able to heal Brain of his tormented past, you support that.
Also, in many interviews, even on the Disney channel special "IWMFTT", Brian says that the band prayed to God, and to Jesus Christ in specific. That was the prayer sessions referred to on the Pet Sounds liner notes. I wish you would refer to my above reference to the difference between "spirituality" and "divine influence/relationship." <!-/Post: 1671-!><!-Post: 1672-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, October 23, 1999 - 10:21 pm:
Yeah, for those of us familar with Gospel music, the expression "lay down my burden" is an obvious Biblical reference to Matthew 11:28-30, which I paraphrased in an earlier post. It is a habit of 60's songwriters to use popular themes to say other things. Such as Motown's "Dancing in the Streets" which is obviously about the civil rights movement or Aretha Franklin's "Think", also about the movement ("Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!"). I am sure you can come up with many examples of your own. I don't think its quite so dangerous to come out and sing about God in then open now. Didn't that Jewish girl (Osborne?) have a song about "What If God Was One of Us?" (he was!) not too long ago? Maybe Brian should have been more explicit, but from interviews, it seems as if he hasn't really dealt with Carl's passing yet. It was very hard on him. <!-/Post: 1672-!><!-Post: 1676-!>
ByAdieu or Die on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 06:32 am:
From what I have read about Brian and Carl's relationship since the early
70s, I don't think that there is one line in "Lay Down Burden that is out of
place. Like many carefully crafted songs, one can choose to interpret it in the
guy-girl relationship sense, if that's where it makes the most sense in one's
life, but I think it also discretely describes 2 brothers who are a product of
the same dysfunctional family, each unable to communicate, each running away,
each choosing a path of their own over the years to deal with their problems.
But underlying the difficulties, the fraternal bond is still there.
Even the final line of the bridge sounds to me like a final goodbye in the last few moments. <!-/Post: 1676-!><!-Post: 1680-!>
By Jeanne on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 10:20 am:
Right, I agree. The metaphor used may have been boy-girl relationship, but he
uses no pronouns except "I", so it can apply to many relationships and I'm sure
he did that on purpose. Although some of us may have been better satisfied if it
had been verbally specific to Carl, when I listen I hear him talking to Carl.
Gary L, I was able to finally hear some of the sound bytes-they give you just enough to whet your appetite. I have not got Brian Wilson yet but when I do I'll find you on the board. Can't email you as you don't give an address.
RJA, the problem with your arguement is that your premise is that the Bible is the word of God, which I do not believe. So when you use the Bible as proof, I am unmoved.
John, You're driving me crazy. But I don't want to reply on an empty stomach. <!-/Post: 1680-!><!-Post: 1692-!>
By RJA on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 07:55 pm:
Well, Jeanne, I think you've summed up the dilemma anyone would have who is
searching for God. You've got to meet Him where He is - and that is in His Word
- the Bible. You're absolutely right. If you don't accept the premise of the
Bible being the Word of God, than we would certainly be traveling in circles.
Also, I didn't mean to sound complaining when I made the comment regarding "Lay Down Burden" - my favorite cut on Imagination. I get the plurality of the lyrics - c'mon guys - give me a little credit here! I just was trying to make the point that it may have been more powerful to write this one specifically for Carl, and not use a guy-girl relationship as a vehicle to express those emotions. But hey, who am I to question Brian's writing? That would be like me trying to teach Brett Favre how to throw a football. <!-/Post: 1692-!><!-Post: 1699-!>
By John w. Proctor on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 11:38 pm:
God also shows himself in nature, in our consciences, in miracles and signs, in the spoken testimony of his disciples, in love toward the poor and needy, and yes, in beautiful art. The Word is living and active, and the book (Bible) gives testimony to the Living Word (see John 5:39-40). Jeanne is aware of the Living God, and any openness of heart and conscience will match up the Lord of the universe with the words of scripture for her. We musn't use the Bible as the starting place for evangelism. It is not for unbelievers, but for the faithful. Lets us wrap the words of scripture in hearts of love and actions of charity and meekness. That Word is hard to ignore. I'm not an expert, but a fellow traveller in the way of the Cross. Peace be with you, RJA. <!-/Post: 1699-!><!-Post: 1702-!>
By Old Sol on Monday, October 25, 1999 - 05:07 am:
Question for John: You're a Christian and you're in the Army. Do you kill your fellow man if a war breaks out? <!-/Post: 1702-!><!-Post: 1725-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Monday, October 25, 1999 - 04:33 pm:
I most certainly do!
The violence of war is not murder. It is not personal killing. It is men from two sides willingly taking the battlefield in honor of their nation and people. The people of God have long been engaged in these wars, with the sanction of the Almighty.
War is a horrible thing, even the very wrath of God. But cowardly submission to tyrants, raiding armies, rapists and slave merchants is even worse. This space is too narrow to expound a theology of war; suffice to say, I am obligated by love to protect and defend my neighbor.
I would imagine you enjoy your freedom, your economic status, and your abundance of choices as a US citizen. That freedom was purchased with the blood of many worthy men and women and you are in their debt. <!-/Post: 1725-!><!-Post: 1731-!>
By John W. Proctor on Monday, October 25, 1999 - 08:34 pm:
RJA, I tried replying to your email, but it keeps getting sent back as an
error. Do you have another e-mail account?
Johnny <!-/Post: 1731-!><!-Post: 1742-!>
By Old Sol on Tuesday, October 26, 1999 - 05:51 am:
I wonder which side God is on? This sounds like the old BS of "kill a Commie For Christ" that I used to hear you guys talk about in Nam. What happened to forgiveness? <!-/Post: 1742-!><!-Post: 1777-!>
ByIain B on Tuesday, October 26, 1999 - 07:40 pm:
IMHO as one who counts himself as a Christian, it does not matter what path a
person takes to God as long as they get there. I am not a reborn Christian, I
NEVER DIED as a Christian so never needed to be reborn, I have pulled away from
God at several times in my life but He has never departed from me nor I from
Him.Asfar as the bible goes DISTRUST ANYONE THAT USES IT BY QUOTING FROM IT. The
bible is meant as a guide nothing more nothing less. It is the word of God but
the word of God as written, translated and altered, yes ALTERED, by man. As far
as talking with God, sorry I dont need to be in a building designated by some to
be a church, or to be on my knees and the making of the sign of the cross is
foreign to me. I have my most intimate conversations with the Lord while naked
in the shower.In the spirituality of Brian's music I do not think that it is an
accident that a lot of Brian's music revolves around water, Life comes from
water, that is probably why I feel closest to God when I am closest to water.
Another singer I have loved for years who is completely outed as a Christian in a British singer Cliff Richard, who almost saw his career torn to threads because of his life commitment to Christ.
Love and Mercy to you and yours tonight..
Iain B <!-/Post: 1777-!><!-Post: 1780-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Tuesday, October 26, 1999 - 09:07 pm:
That is a naive oversimplification of the issue. If you really want to get deeper than the sound bites you have posted, please e-mail me.
How did you get such authority to judge scripture, its contents, its usage, and its epistimology? Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (Sorry to quote scripture!). How can you say you love God if you won't even gather with his people to worship Him, as he has plainly commanded?
"I know so many people, who think they can do it alone.
They isolate themselves, and stay in their saftey zones.
Now what can you tell them? And what can you say that won't make them defensive? I know there's an answer!" Brian Wilson/Tony Asher <!-/Post: 1780-!><!-Post: 1789-!>
By Grenade on Wednesday, October 27, 1999 - 12:40 am:
Re: Lay Down Burden
Brian stated in Los Angeles Times Magazine that he and Van Dyke Parks are writing a song for Carl , I believe it was called "Life of a Man." Unfortunately, the lyrics weren't finished in time for inclusion on Imagination. Maybe one day we'll hear it, until then we'll have to accept his substitute. <!-/Post: 1789-!><!-Post: 1973-!>
By CJ on Monday, November 1, 1999 - 09:47 am:
Jeanne, you obviously aren't a christian. What can you possibly contribute to this conversation? Go to some other topic and make yourself useful, if that is possible! Your crap isn't wanted here! <!-/Post: 1973-!><!-Post: 1984-!>
By Adieu or Die on Monday, November 1, 1999 - 06:44 pm:
From one Christian to another, was that a 'Christian' thing to say? Are these
the Christian 'virtues' that you want the readers of this post to know you and
your colleagues by? Is this the type of love for mankind that you've learned as
You've just lost all credibility.
For a relatively new listener, Jeanne has some of the best insight into the music of BW that I've read on this board. I would rather converse with her on other threads of this board than have to put on rose tinted glasses to converse on this one.
We all know that BW believes in God and he even wrote about Christ in at least song (Still I Dream Of It), but how can you be so sure that he's a good and active Christian? He did not marry a Christian (Marilyn), so it couldn't have been too important to him. Surely such a non-Christian act as this must really bother you, yes?
As a Christian myself, I am not so self-righteous and naive to assume that everything in life that is beautiful must originate with Christ. Why is this the stated opinion of this thread? I won't bother mentioning any of the great composers in history who were non-Christian. Let me only say that their music is beautiful and we are fortunate as Christians to have it and share in its beauty.
Wouldn't it be something if BW were to publicly proclaim that he was a non-Christian. Where would this thread be then?
Oh, and by the way. I'm United Protestant. Can't you tell?
I would suggest that you take your hatred, somehow self-justified by using the name of Christ, off of this board, and go somewhere else. You, more than anyone, should know that God has a commandment that explicitly addresses this sort of thing. <!-/Post: 1984-!><!-Post: 1997-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 01:26 am:
Easy, folks, easy!
All good things come from God in some way. I do not understand CJ's comment, but i wouldn't be surprised if it was a sarcastic slap at the whole thread or at least the sincere Christians. Let's overcome evil by doing good.
Brian's faith is not really why i started this thread, though it is a perfectly legitimate topic IMO. I just wanted to see if there were any other believers out there that have been so attached to his music since childhood the way I have. I am still searching for the proper place for this beautiful art in my life of committment to Jesus, and I have found many of you very candid, warm, and helpful. Thanks! Peace be with you!
Wake the World!
Johnny <!-/Post: 1997-!><!-Post: 2002-!>
Bysal on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 09:26 am:
CJ, so out of line toward Jeanne... where's the love? She's obviously
intelligent and sincere. That's a lot more than I see from much of the Christian
community... and I've been a believer for 20 years.
And perhaps John is correct, maybe CJ is attempting to 'tear down' intentionally... this is a classic Sun Tsu "Art of War" tactic -- evil uses it rather well also. <!-/Post: 2002-!><!-Post: 2009-!>
By Dr. Jimmy on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 11:11 am:
Hmmmmmmmm...where to begin...
First, I have heard a lot of spirituality from Brian, but never anything specifically mentioning Jesus. Also, I believe it was Carl who at one point, mentioned that he believes in God as a very inclusive concept: God is you, God is me, God is all of our collective love, etc. I apologize, I don't have the exact quote with me right now. This to me suggests a very definite spirituality, but not necessarily a Christian one. From what I can gather of the Wilson's childhood they were raised Christian, more or less, but I'm inclined to think that they adopted a much more "liberal" non-denominational sort of spirituality later on. To me, "God Only Knows", "Love and Mercy", etc., suggest that Brian holds very dear the moral principals of Christianity (which exist, in some form, in many religions), but perhaps doesn't as closely observe the more specific dogma: Christ dying for our sins, etc. Remember, Christianity has no trademark on the concepts of prayer, God, spirituality, or Love and Mercy.
As far as some of the posts here trying to convert people (John W. Proctor, I'm looking in your direction...):well, that's really uncalled for. When was the last time Jeanne tried to convert any of you to her religion, or lack of it, (whatever may be the case)? Believe me, non-Christians are a lot more aware of Christianity than you give us credit for. It's not for lack of awareness that we don't become born again. It's because that's simply not our path. We know you're trying to help us, really, we're very greatful. But we don't need any help. If there is a Heaven, it's such a huge place that there can't be just one road leading to it. <!-/Post: 2009-!><!-Post: 2016-!>
By David K. on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 01:12 pm:
I think its important to point out that in its
full context, Brian's most prominant use of
"Jesus" was in a song that questions the
traditional Christian values of his childhood.
"Still I Dream of It":
"A little while ago,
my mother told me
Jesus loves the world.
But if that's true then
why won't Jesus help me find a girl
and find my world.
Til then I'm just a dreamer."
While I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is
rejecting the Christian faith, it does imply that
in this dark time in his life, his childhood
religion is of little comfort.
David K. (the mystical atheist) <!-/Post: 2016-!><!-Post: 2018-!>
By Adieu or Die on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 04:51 pm:
Thanks David K. You just saved me an
identical post. I agree wholeheartedly
with your assessment.
I would add that this appears to reflect
Brian's adult disappointment with the
religious beliefs that were instilled in
him as an innocent, trusting child. Maybe
he was taught the wrong message, but this
was the expectation that he had of
Christianity growing up. <!-/Post: 2018-!><!-Post: 2020-!>
By Jeanne on Tuesday, November 2, 1999 - 06:30 pm:
My sincere thanks for all the kind words on my behalf and on behalf of the
right to disagree about religion.
I was already off the thread, hadn't posted in 7 days for several reasons; one, because John's quoting of Brian's lyrics to underscore his points really affected me, more than I wanted to talk about on this board, two,because I wanted to respect the Christians' right to talk about Brian's music and their faith with out having to defend their feelings all the time, any more than I would want to constantly defend my feelings for Brian's music to a non-fan. And three, because I've heard all the arguements before and just got tired of it.
I say this knowing full well that as far as some of the Christians on this thread are concerned, non-Christians like myself are going to hell. Well, they can think that if they want.
Although there has been some annoying self-righteousness, John Proctor et al have responded when questioned; it's not like they're hounding the non-Christians all over the board. And I was the one who first asked them to elaborate. When people of different religious views try to talk about it, it's always sticky. I think everybody did pretty well until CJ. People were passionate in expressing their feelings; it was only CJ who crossed a line.
Thank goodness(or is that God) that we have our love of Brian in common. <!-/Post: 2020-!><!-Post: 2033-!>
By Re- awakened fan on Wednesday, November 3, 1999 - 07:20 am:
Some people want to make the point that they are "holier than thou". For some reason these self righteous types like to try to make others feel bad about themselves. From one Fan of Brian's to another, PEACE AND LOVE! <!-/Post: 2033-!><!-Post: 2045-!>
By reginald on Wednesday, November 3, 1999 - 08:42 pm:
I don't think I can axiomatically state whether BDW was,is or ever will be a
Christian or not.
I don't even think I have sufficient knowledge of the man to know whether he is religious or not.
However, what I do know - and I'm sure a lot of BDW fans will agree - is that listening to the man's music can be a deeply moving, even spiritual experience. And if this brings us closer to our God then we are very fortunate that our God gave us BDW.
Jeanne, please ignore the insults this board has been slinging your way in recent times. Like others, I enjoy hearing your insights.
Peace... <!-/Post: 2045-!><!-Post: 2140-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, November 6, 1999 - 12:11 am:
If anyone is offended by this content, no one has a gun to your head making
you read it.
If anyone feels this is something they would like to discuss, but not on the BB, I have provided my e-mail address.
If anyone wants to accuse me of being holier-than-thou, that's your right to accuse. However, if I am accused on the basis of the Words of God, that is properly where your accusation is directed.
If anyone believes that all ways eventually lead to eternal life, you are certainly welcome to believe that. But is unreasonable to expect others who are convinced of the truth of the Way of Christ to sit by and smile, saying nothing.
If anyone believes I have no right to quote Tony Asher's lyrics to illustrate the dilemma of sharing faith, where is your right to quote them?
If anyone wants to just hear pretty, soothing sounds without dealing with the hard issues of life, go right ahead. I can't live that way anymore. I have seen too much.
If anyone wants to talk about the Lord, the Beach Boys, and Brian's music, I still want to.
"See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called the 'children of God.' And so, in fact, we are. This is why the world does not know us; it has not known God." 1st John, 3:1 <!-/Post: 2140-!><!-Post: 2301-!>
BySoulful Young Man Sunshine on Thursday, November 11, 1999 - 12:36 pm:
I just wanted to say, as a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) I've always appreciated the spirituality in Brian and the Beach Boys music. I know parts of Brian's life have involved hedonistic behavior, but I also know that great pain can drive good people to sin to try and dull the pain. I always hope that somehow the Lord can heal this great man. He certainly has given him a gift. I know many of you Christian folks are under the impression that Mormons don't worship Christ, or that we worship a false Jesus, and nothing I say will change your opinions. But I know what I believe, and that is that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, and my Savior, and I am happy to see so many Christians posting messages on this subject. I've always supposed that Brian attracts a lot of believers, because his music is so edifying and pure. Oh and Brian, thanks for "Salt Lake City". <!-/Post: 2301-!><!-Post: 2333-!>
By RMC on Friday, November 12, 1999 - 07:34 am:
John, when I mentioned that I do not go to church very often I was not saying
it is not important or
unnecessary; I was trying to make a point, that the most important thing is our relationship to
Jesus, and the rest comes as you grow spiritually.
I will e-mail you from now on, because I do not want to take too much space on a BW/BB board, but
I do want to say once more that, to me, the only thing on this earth that has brought me the pure joy that I experienced when I got to know Jesus is listening to Brian's music. Just as God has never disappointed me, his music never did.
I also appreciate and value all views here, and I want to thank you, Jeanne, and all others that disagree, for your insights. True Christianity has its roots on love. Jesus said all commandments could be summed up in the commandment to love one another. I love you all.
And I will quote Jeanne now: we all DO have our love of Brian in common. Ain't that wonderful?!
God bless! <!-/Post: 2333-!><!-Post: 2379-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Friday, November 12, 1999 - 10:21 pm:
Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me. Its just that there is so much "cowboy" and "lone ranger" Christianity out there that I feel its my duty to herd people toward the Church, which is where I KNOW you can meet Jesus, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I also realize there are people who have been hurt in Church, are the victims of bad teaching, or just have sincere questions. I'd love to discuss that with anyone at
By smiley on Saturday, November 13, 1999 - 02:55 pm:
The bible contains the word of God, but even as a Christian, I recognize that there is the possibility that through poor or conflicting translations, some of what is contained in the bilbe could be incorrect due to the errors of the humans who scrawled it. There is also the difficulty of interpretation (el traduitore tradictore.. [the translator is a traitor])
As for being a Christian or not, I wasn't until I challenged myself to achieve the type of love and kindness Jesus Christ showed to his fellow people in life. When I felt the resonance of his teachings on `life and how to live it' in my soul, I grew to love and trust in him.
I hope that you won't let Christians who mistakenly condemn others through their own pride dissuade you from accepting the gift of God's salvation through his son Jesus. God's forgiveness is eternal and is given to those who
simply love him.
In His Name,
D.`Smiley' Taylor <!-/Post: 2401-!><!-Post: 2408-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, November 13, 1999 - 08:07 pm:
Please e-mail me when you find one of these translational errors.
As a trained theologian, I am more than a little acquainted with the epistimology of the Bible. I am not an unreasonable sectarian adherent with no common sense; I am just wary of all the doubt about the veracity of the scriptures.
When one considers how we got our scriptures in their current form today, how many martyrs have died for that faithful transmission of Divine Truth, and how the Dead Sea Scrolls (ca. 100 BC) bear witness to the accuracy of our modern translations, I find it much more plausible to conclude the scriptures are repugnant to those who are predisposed to rejecting God with or without the words of scripture as an excuse.
I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post,
other than the general idea you seem to be conveying that you "found" God (who was never lost) rather than he called, sought, courted, and won you with his love and truth.
Peace be with you. <!-/Post: 2408-!><!-Post: 2426-!>
By smiley on Sunday, November 14, 1999 - 02:15 pm:
Thanks for the reply.
Are there not examples of writings, such as the `Gospel of Thomas', that appears to have been originally written around 100 A.D., which very closely convey much of the teachings that Christ puts forth in the four Bible Gospels, but which contain some lines that in their translation, bear no resemblance and in fact contradict the accepted teachings of Jesus? The so called pantheistic sore thumb of...`lift a stone and I am there', for example?
I am far from being an expert on the Bible and am in fact a somewhat uneducated Christian. I plan to rectify this through further Bible study with my Christian a cappella group. I do find it very hard to accept the idea that the Bible can be totally free of some, if only minor, error in translation. Also, I stand by the fact that many different interpretations are in use for various biblical passages. This is simply the state of Christianity. In a way that is a very healthy sign. It shows that people are still actively seeking the truth of God's word with an open heart
and coming together to celebrate the overwhelming evidence for Jesus' holy birth, teaching, healing, sacrifice and resurrection.
D.Taylor <!-/Post: 2426-!><!-Post: 2428-!>
Bytgfnyc on Sunday, November 14, 1999 - 04:37 pm:
Some thoughts and ramblings:
First, I'd like to thank you all for this thread. I've found it very interesting to read. I am also pleased that, for the most part, it hasn't gotten mean. Pretty amazing considering the history of controversy on this board and the touchiness of this subject matter for some people.
It is clear from reading the above thread that there is a vast difference in the spiritual emphasies among those who consider themselves to be Christians. It is my hope that the spirit of tolerance for others beliefs will prevail on this board as well as in the world. I believe that while discernment is necessary, judgement is a slippery slope down which humans were not intended to travel. Even if you believe someone is going straight to hell, I don't think it is spiritually correct to try and shame someone into changing their belief system. I'm not saying that anyone above has tried to do so, I'm just saying that I have seen it done and I do not believe it is a Godly thing. The Bible states that the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which as I understand it is saying that a work of God is not a work of God. That is a risk I'm not willing to take.
I had a born again Christian experience in college. I, too, really enjoyed the music of Phil Keaggy (who, by the way, Jimi Hendrix thought was the greatest guitarist in the world), 2nd Chapter of Acts and Keith Greene and I was pleased to see their music mentioned above. I actually had my own Christian Rock radio show in college. What bothered me about my Christian fellowship experience then was it seemed to stay focused on the salvation message and never talked about growing into the fullness of Spirit. Although there are people on this board who will decide that I'm not a Christian based on what I'm about to say, I try to live my life as much in the image of Christ as I can and I believe my path is one way (not the only way, but a valid way) to follow God.
I believe that Christ was fully human and fully divine. I believe Jesus died on the Cross not for the expiation of our sins because God required that someone must pay for the sins of the world, but because dying on the cross was what he had to do for the people of that time to understand his message. Jesus came to teach everyone of the divine within. The word Christ means "the one with charisma or annointing." If we are indeed made in God's image, Christ came to show each of us how to access "the Christ within". I believe that's what he meant when he said, "no one come to the Father but by me." The symbol of the cross is not without meaning for me, however. For me, the vertical portion of the cross symbolizes the connection of heaven to humans to the earth and the horizontal part of the cross symbolizes humans connection to each other and other beings on earth. The two lines intersect at the heart. The message here is that if people live in their hearts, they will honor God, the earth and each other.
The Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic (i forget which - I think Greek)word for sin is an archery term which means "to miss the mark." We all miss the mark. I don't think anyone would argue with that. If we turn to the divine nature or "Christ" within, we are hitting the mark and turning from "sin". If we live apart from this nature we experience death, i.e. not the lush security and sustaining life and love that living connected to God offers us. I believe Jesus died viewing himself as a Jew, not thinking that he was the founder of a new religion called Christianity. Jesus was a system buster. He wasn't about religion. He was/is about being connected to God.
There are two words for "word" in the bible. "Logos" and "Rhema". "Logos" is the written word and "Rhema" is the spirit of the word. A lot of Christians seems to worship the written word instead of the spirit of the word. Although I greatly value the wisdom of the Bible, I think it even points to its own limitations. If the Bible presented a perfect recipe for Christianity would we even need the Holy Spirit?
I know that this is a controversial point of view. I work with community of others who support each other in their spiritual journeys. We gather to pray, meditate and discuss spiritual literature that we read, including the Bible. We also practice spiritual healing and hold the belief that God empowers all of us to do far more than we think in terms of the Body/Mind Spirit connection.
As far as Brian goes, I agree with those who feel Brian is deeply spiritually connected in his music. Brian does talk about God a lot in his music. (Dennis talked a LOT about Jesus in his music, has anyone else noticed that?) I do feel that there is a level of spiritual connection that Brian has not yet been able to make. If he had, I feel like he would be less tortured in his current existence. He still says he suffers emotionally. He has a very hard time even talking about Carl. He says his way of dealing with Carl's death is to not deal with it. I wish more for him - more comfort, more peace - a deeper healing. I believe with all my heart he will find it one day. He is a seeker. He has sought divine love, mercy and beauty all his life. I think hope and pray that God will honor his quest.
Thanks for letting me voice my thoughts. Peace, love and mercy to all - Nancy <!-/Post: 2428-!><!-Post: 2434-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Monday, November 15, 1999 - 02:14 am:
Thanks for taking the time to explain your views. You have put a lot of thought, energy and determination into arriving at the conclusions you have. I support all sincere seekers and thinkers.
As you stated above, your views are really not square with the consonant, time-proven, Traditional doctrines of the Christian Church. Christ's humanity and divinity are a great mystery, which even the Church acknowleges to be unfathomable. Jesus, as a Jew, knew fully well he was the Messiah, the Son of David, the Anointed One. He was not a radical, spiritual liberator who took on the establishment. He was the Lamb of God who came to fulfill, NOT destroy the Jewish biblical, temple, sacrificial religion.
"Logos" in Greek means "the comprehensive thought behind all there is", not "the written word." "Rhema" means a concise, cogent utterance, distinct and specific. The scriptures bear witness to Christ. You are right that a radical, unbalanced form of biblicism leads to error. "You search the scriptures, for in them you believe you have eternal life. And they are that which bears witness to me. But you won't come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40) So we say the Lord there saying it is possible to have the scriptures, and not have Him.
For a firm, unchanging support, the Catholic Church has upheld the Word of God for 2 millenia. All modern Christianity owes its existence in some way to the Ancient Mother Church, whom St. Paul calls "the pillar and ground of truth."
Brian would probably be pretty amazed to know this discussion was taking place on a BB dedicated to his music!
Johnny <!-/Post: 2434-!><!-Post: 2536-!>
By donald on Friday, November 19, 1999 - 10:20 pm:
Amen <!-/Post: 2536-!><!-Post: 2545-!>
By riadams on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 10:37 am:
Whew! I've been away from this board for a few weeks, and when I came back, I
couldn't believe all the new posts. My compliments to Nancy - nice post! John -
you're right on the money as usual. I wish I could say the same for the rest of
I seem to recall that Kathy Trocolli, a Christian recording artist, teamed with the Beach Boys for a song on a CD a few years ago. Does anyone know which song and which CD? I wonder what her insights are/were as to the spirituality of the BBs.
Rick <!-/Post: 2545-!><!-Post: 2547-!>
By Billy K. on Saturday, November 20, 1999 - 11:38 am:
Supposedly, Dennis Wilson said that "The Dreamer"
from "Pacific Ocean Blue" was inspired by Jesus......anyone know of any interviews with Dennis mentioning the inspiration on this song? <!-/Post: 2547-!><!-Post: 2582-!>
Bytgfnyc on Monday, November 22, 1999 - 06:44 am:
Rick - Kathy Trocolli was one of the artists featured on Stars & Stripes,
country artists covering BB songs w/ BBs in singing backups. I think her tune
was I can hear music???
-Nancy <!-/Post: 2582-!><!-Post: 2629-!>
By Student of History on Tuesday, November 23, 1999 - 10:25 am:
John Proctor, of course, is a character in Arthur Miller's play THE CRUCIBLE. Proctor had an affair with Abigail Williams. Later Proctor admits that he is a "lecher." At the end of the play, John is hung for his refusal to sign a confession to practicing witchcraft. Miller wrote this play to show the dangers of a modern day witch hunt which was occurring at the time(l950's). The modern day witchhunt was the so-called Red Scare.At onwe point, Murray Wilson even attempted to score some music for a California musical adaptation of the play, but failed to develop the lyrics. Later Brian took a stab at the thing,but only got asfar as "rock,rock roll Plymouth rock roll over. Brian's efforts of course were erroneous as the play dealt with events in Salem,not at Plymouth Rock. In conclusion, The author eventually married Marilyn Monroe. <!-/Post: 2629-!><!-Post: 2650-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 03:14 am:
What the heck are you smoking? <!-/Post: 2650-!><!-Post: 2660-!>
By Student of History on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 11:15 am:
Reverand Parris is the antagonist in THE CRUCIBLE. He was, at one time, a
wealthy merchant in Barbadoes, who comes to Salem village as the new pastor. The
allegations of witchcraft began when he discovered his neice Abigail and some
other girls dancing naked in the woods. Having been caught, the girls feign
seizures and Betty Parris,even pretends to be in a coma. A careful reader of
this play knows that the whole lot of these Puritans take the charges of
witchcraft seriously. Eventually, almost every townsperson is drawn into the
mess. Neighbors accuse each other of witchcraft. Rev. Hale, a supposed expert on
the devil arrives. Soon an investigation is underway.
Madness reigns. Today, experts believe that the madness was caused by the ergot root which produces hallucinations if ingested. Meteorological signs for that time period(l600's) point to excellent growing conditions for ergot.
So where does this leave Brian and Company? Unfortunately, being from California, the guys could not grasp the dire situation of these nutty Puritans. Their attempt in the unreleased Plymouth Rock song from Smile shows this. Brian and the others, as far as we know do celebrate Thanksgiving,though Mike and Brian do not celebrate it together like they did in the old days. Murray would round the young uns up and they'd go to Uncle Milton's house at Mt. Vernon and Fairway for the feast. Denny was partial to drumsticks,but Brian and Carl were more "meat and potatoes" types. Mother Audrey's pumpkin pies were always a treat at the gatherings. After dinner, Murray would organize a tough football game on the front lawn. In the evening, the two families would have a songfest--Denny didn't participate in those days,but would instead be busy looking at TV shows. All in all a pleasant time was had by all involved. Happy Thanksgiving everyone! <!-/Post: 2660-!><!-Post: 2664-!>
By Fred on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 12:30 pm:
Wow! Who tapped this keg?
Fred <!-/Post: 2664-!><!-Post: 2678-!>
By urgot jane on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 04:23 pm:
cool history.....dont mind readin mo....i rmember streakin in 74....and t this day neighbors accuse each other o witchcraft......got any ergot ? ....urglie...urglie <!-/Post: 2678-!><!-Post: 2679-!>
ByArlen on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 06:20 pm:
How great it is to see there are other Christians infatuated with Brian's music as am I! What a childlike but profound statement was Brian's: "We're the first group to have used 'God' in the title of a song." His music takes me back to an era when rock was fairly "innocent". Many of the tunes(not necessarily the lyrics) have moved me to tears of joy(?) Saw Brian in Seattle in October of this year. Best experience I've had in about 20 years. I wish I had my own computer to talk to you guys more. Well, pretty soon! <!-/Post: 2679-!><!-Post: 2693-!>
By John Harris on Wednesday, November 24, 1999 - 08:37 pm:
Here's Brian from the mid-'70s in a radio interview: "Of course, we believed in Jesus Christ. Some of our stuff indicates the presence of Jesus Christ in our music, which I have been responsible for coming up with. I think that the Christ sound in the harmonics that we've made, it's a chapel effect (that) has given rise to the opening of minds and has opened souls up to glorious music. I think that all is due to the fact that Christ had touched our group a number of years ago with 'Pet Sounds' and then ever since then, and has given us direction, and of course, a sound. There has been e.s.t., there has been meditation, which we all took heed to, we all have jumped on the meditational aspect. And what has happened is it's changed our lifestyles, it's given us a little cultivation of peace, a cultivation of easier and better thinking; our minds are clearer. It hasn't changed our music so much because, like I say, Jesus Christ had touched our music years ago. . .Starting with that record ("California Girls") there was an electricity and it was just as though something had touched the group with a magic touch, with a wand. This wand is very hard to describe. Our group had been touched by the Lord. And the Lord spoke through the group and had given us a power and a majesty, a majesticness, and I think because of that we stayed on our own keel. Of course, we enjoyed and received great inspirations from the psychedelic movement, but like I say our growth was not really parallel to the psychedelic movement, although I think a couple of things we did on our albums were rather psychedelic, like that 'Woody Woodpecker Symphony' thing on 'Smiley Smile' was a psychedelic experience. It had a psychedelic feel to it." <!-/Post: 2693-!><!-Post: 2715-!>
By sceptical on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 06:04 am:
This does not sound like Brian. What's your source? <!-/Post: 2715-!><!-Post: 2718-!>
By John Harris on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 11:51 am:
It's from a syndicated radio show called The Daily Planet. Yes, it does sound different for Brian in some ways. But he said it. I have a tape of the show. <!-/Post: 2718-!><!-Post: 2728-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, November 25, 1999 - 11:11 pm:
Brian has used a LOT of drugs, folks.
It sounds like Brian to me. And as a fellow composer, I can relate to what he is saying. When you make a great sound, song or lyric, you get a sense of awe. It COULDN'T have come from you. It sounds too good, too profound. There is an awareness that you are reflecting the Great Creator in your own creative process. For him to relate that to being touched by Jesus is very profound, because Brian sees the world as a musician, a composer, a singer of soulful sounds, and as a creator. He sees God in that way, creating, healing, loving us. I doubt that Brian was very cognizant of this all times, mostly because drugs have an extremely destructive effect on creative souls like Brian's. I took LSD too, and it nearly destroyed me. Although what Brian was describing in this interview is very obviously NOT Christian spirituality, it is still remarkable that when in awe of the great art that emerged from him and the Beach Boys, he looks for someone to credit, and he credits Christ. That is very profound. <!-/Post: 2728-!><!-Post: 2736-!>
By Just Say No on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 08:29 am:
John, What does Brian's drug use, and your drug use, have to do with any of this? <!-/Post: 2736-!><!-Post: 2743-!>
By Just Say No No on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 12:31 pm:
John writes, "Although what Brian was describing in this interview is very
obviously NOT Christian spirituality, it is still..." If it is very obviously
NOT Christian spirituality, than what is your take on "Christian spirituality"?
You contradict yourself all over your post. One minute you're saying that Brian sees God as creating, loving, healing us, and being touched by Jesus, to that "what he is describing is obviously NOT Christian spirituality"??
Then you close your post with "he looks for someone to credit, and he credits Christ."
No wonder I like to think for myself. <!-/Post: 2743-!><!-Post: 2752-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 05:06 pm:
Just say no:
If you want my "take" on Christian spirituality, you just need to comb through the entire thread, its there. You are also free to email me.
Christian spirituality has to do with more than just the "creator" aspects of faith; it is chiefly identified by the redemptive aspects of faith, which is to say, how we are SAVED by God. that is what you'll not hear in that interview or any other that I am aware of.
As for drugs, I believe I coherently stated above that drugs have a destructive effect on the soul. That particular drug, LSD, has potential to excite great paranoia and anxiety. The reason I mentioned drugs is that it should not surprise anyone that a drug addict expresses many seemingly conflicting/diverse view-points. Drugs contribute to the disunity of the soul.
Brian's looking to credit Jesus Christ for that creative power/genius is remarkable because for him, the creation of beautiful music is the pinnacle of human experience, and for him to credit Christ for that creative power is the highest praise he can give.
Go ahead and think for yourself.
Wake the World!
JP <!-/Post: 2752-!><!-Post: 2753-!>
By RainMan on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 05:38 pm:
I've got a guess of what you mean by "Christian Sprituality": It's what you think it is, and everyone who thinks differently is wrong.
Am I close?
"...a drug addict expresses many seemingly conflicting/diverse view-points."
I'm sorry, I think it's kind of hyprocritical for someone who reads the Bible as much as you do to talk about others' "conflicting view-points". The Bible really has the market cornered on those.
Keep Rollin', Holy Roller! <!-/Post: 2753-!><!-Post: 2760-!>
By Billy K. on Friday, November 26, 1999 - 08:08 pm:
Hey John, a couple of things for you....I do have
some Greek dictionaries someplace, and will look
to see if I can accurately translate some of
those words for you. "Logos", in general Greek
conversation, is simply the word for "word".
I think your definition of "Logos", used in that context, is probably the correct one. But I have never heard the word "Rhema" before--I will have to look it up.
But knowing the quirkiness of the language, the tense of a word used in certain sentences can change the whole meaning. Sometimes people not all that familiar with the language, put the accent on the wrong syllable. And there are some
words here and there that are different in the
Koinoi(Biblical era)Greek, as opposed to the
modern language. Why people say "it's all Greek
to me"--hey, it's a tough one to figure out.
And one more thing on Dennis Wilson--in the song
"Friday Night", he says "I believe that Jesus is
in my soul....".
And I didn't know that you wrote music, either.
On the subject of drugs/creativity, I'll give you
an interesting example---Warren Zevon. Although
he has written songs since he has sobered up,
I have yet to find one that is anything better
than just mediocre. <!-/Post: 2760-!><!-Post: 2773-!>
By Just Say No No on Saturday, November 27, 1999 - 07:38 am:
RainMan, I don't believe you're "close", I believe you're right on the money.
"Christians" preach "tolerance", and yet they're the most intolerant people that I know, when it comes to anyone elses views, and thoughts that might differ from their own.
How does anyone know what is in Brian's heart, and soul, besides God?
Brian has given us all so much unconditional love, and joy, and beauty through his music, that it should be obvious that this man has been touched, and blessed tremendously by his creator.
But if he is not "saved", in the minds of some, this beautiful, spiritual man, would then be "cast into the fires of hell" when he leaves this earth? I don't think so.
Dogmatic thinking, and preaching is not for me. <!-/Post: 2773-!><!-Post: 2791-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, November 27, 1999 - 09:22 pm:
He has given the world beautiful music. But what has he given his wife and
daughters? Does not the way a man cares for his own dependents matter to God?
This is not to judge Brian Wilson, but lets not make a saint out of the man.
How have I been intolerant? Is it intolerant to make a distinction between Christian Spirituality and other expressions of spirituality?
Whose faith or religion have I insulted? <!-/Post: 2791-!><!-Post: 2792-!>
By RainMan on Saturday, November 27, 1999 - 10:43 pm:
"How have I been intolerant?...Whose faith or religion have I insulted?"
Hey, Johnny! This sound familiar?
Of course you can take the "Jesus" road! Its the easiest one out there! It does not confuse or confound, requires no superior intelligence, holy qualifications, or demands on intellectual honesty. Its safe, its proven, its a happy road, and it does lead to a contentment and joy and healing that all of us need. If you find what we have found in His sweet, innocent love somewhere else, then have at it! But I seriously doubt that a person can find the spiritual, emotional and physical treasure we have found in Jesus in any other place. What you love about Brian is exponentially available in Christ."
Well ,sounds to me like an implied put-down of any other religions. I know you're only trying to share the good news, but hey, if I want it, I'll ask for it.
""I know so many people, who think they can make it alone.
They isolate themselves and stay in their safety zones.
Now what can you tell them?
And what can you say that won't make them defensive?
I know there's an answer; I know now, but I had to find it by myself..."
Brian Wilson/Tony Asher
I believe that answer is Jesus."
And I don't. But hey, it's good to know that you think I'm "isolat[ing] [myself] and stay[ing] in [my] safety zones". I don't feel insulted. Heavens, no!!!
"If anyone believes that all ways eventually lead to eternal life, you are certainly welcome to believe that. But is unreasonable to expect others who are convinced of the truth of the Way of Christ to sit by and smile, saying nothing."
Oh, so you're here to show me the one and only true path to spiritual salvation? What an amazingly improbable stroke of luck that your religion, of all the millions that the world has seen over the years, has been the only one to completely comprehend the nature of God, Life, the Universe, and Everything. Lemme clue you in, Johnny. If there is a heaven, it is much too big a town to only have one road leading into it.
"...it should not surprise anyone that a drug addict expresses many seemingly conflicting/diverse view-points. Drugs contribute to the disunity of the soul."
Well, that's a pretty clear shot at the drug community, isn't it, Johnny? That one really hurt. That was low. I felt that.
Oh, well. Good for laughs, if nothing else. Keep Rollin', Holy Roller!
Just Say No No: Now you are the kinda guy I'm really glad is around. Good to see there's some clear thinkers here. <!-/Post: 2792-!><!-Post: 2800-!>
By Jeanne on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 08:01 am:
Rain Man, I correspond with Johnny often. He has very strong views with which
I don't always agree , but I have not found him to be as you characterize him.
He's been very willing to discuss our differences in a respectful way. He
doesn't consign Brian to Hell, or me for that matter. This is not to say that he
doesn't think he's right and you're wrong. I have many of the same objections
you have. But the purpose of the board is discussion, after all.
Drugs can be used or abused. I used them with no ill effects or problem with addiction and I don't regret it or apologize for it. But Brian had a different experience with them. Marilyn says he completely changed. Brian said drugs(literally blew his mind. You speak of the drug community like it's just another social club. I don't believe anyone appreciates being addicted to a drug.
Also want to remind you that the subject of the thread is "Any Christians Out There? I Love Brian/BB, and the Lord". If you come to this thread, you ARE asking for it. <!-/Post: 2800-!><!-Post: 2803-!>
By Skeptical on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 09:06 am:
Just Say No No
Sorry, three words come to mind here.
Really, this has been a very interesting and thought-provoking thread until you two came along. <!-/Post: 2803-!><!-Post: 2806-!>
By Just Say No No on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 09:22 am:
Jeanne writes, "He doesn't consign Brian to Hell, or me for that matter."
Oh, really Jeanne? I thought you had more sense than that, when it came to the "Christian" viewpoint, about needing to be "saved", to get to Heaven.
Next time you correspond with Johnny, ask him where you will be heading if you, or Brian, or anyone else, does not believe as "he" does when you leave this earth.
It isn't called Paradise. <!-/Post: 2806-!><!-Post: 2814-!>
By John Harris on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 07:15 pm:
I don't think John deserves these insults. I consider myself a Christian, too, and agree with the basics of what he's saying. But sometimes well-meaning Christians do two things that bug me: pass judgment on others, and split hairs on doctrine. That's happened here. None of us really knows the true extent of another person's relationship with God. And I find it difficult to hear "The Lord's Prayer" or "Our Prayer" or the beauty in Brian's other arrangements and productions and not hear Christian spirituality. But John has made his comments in a positive way, for the most part. Nothing he has said merits some of the demeaning responses in this thread. <!-/Post: 2814-!><!-Post: 2816-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 08:06 pm:
First of all, I never passed judgment on anyone. But I do believe that God
will judge each of us according to our works in the end.
God has endorsed the ministry and message of Jesus Christ by raising him from the dead. That is a sign to the world that he is the Son of God and the way of salvation. No other prophet, sage, or religious leader has ever been raised from death or even had followers proclaim such.
I do not deny that God can save people other than Christians, but by raising Christ from the dead he has given witness to the world that this man is different from all others. The problem isn't really with Proctor, the problem is with Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the "Way, the Truth, and the Life." Either he is the biggest imposter who ever deceived the human race or He is the Son of God. That did not originate with me, but with him, and with God who Christians believe raised Him from death.
Your "religion" if you will, or "beliefs" are against mine. That makes you as intolerant as you claim me to be.
I also offered my e-mail for direct communication, something my brave opponents have not done.
"God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn it, but that through Him, the world could be saved." St. John 3:17 <!-/Post: 2816-!><!-Post: 2820-!>
ByAndrew Gladwin (Andrew) on Sunday, November 28, 1999 - 10:21 pm:
Guys, please cool it, especially RainMan and Just Say No No, otherwise I am going to have to nix this thread. You are getting too personal in your attacks on John Proctor and that is the sort of thing I want to avoid on this board <!-/Post: 2820-!><!-Post: 2825-!>
By Jeanne on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 04:13 am:
Andrew, please don't take the whole thread away. You can selectively delete; you've done it in the past. Most of what has been discussed on this board is related to Brian, whether or not people agree with what is being expressed. The white board discusses things not found on other boards, which is why it's the best board, so please, don't be too heavy-handed on this thread. Thanks, and thanks for keeping an eye on things. <!-/Post: 2825-!><!-Post: 2829-!>
By confessin jane on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 07:50 am:
forgive and forget ...and accept others as they are ...i've heard that many times from my mama growin up...i try to practice what i have been taught, but sometimes i slip up (how many times do you have to look the other way ?)....i never go to church.....and i really dont have anything to confess (at least nothin major...i think...what are the guidelines to a confession?)...i say prayers, but get the feelin nobody is listenin (how many do you have to say to be heard ?)....was baptized as a child, then later in years, baptized again, (was forced under water in a big pool in front of a whole lotta people screamin and carryin on)...did i sin for bein baptized twice?...the second time i kinda fought it...i thought it was weird...was that wrong ?...i wonder what fate lies ahead for me ?.... do you think there will be enough room in heaven for me ?... or do you think hell will be afraid of me ? <!-/Post: 2829-!><!-Post: 2836-!>
ByWild Honey on Monday, November 29, 1999 - 12:50 pm:
I love Brian Wilson's music....i'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but i
still feel the love and spirituality in his music....and i do believe that he
knows about jesus, now whether or not he cites jesus as an influence...i don't
know...he sure talks about god alot....but you have to ascribe some kind of big
important non-tanigible force to his "gift".....i mean...to say it's just
"talent"...is an understatement....so, he must explain to himself WHY he has
this amazing gift....and the obvious (and easy) answer is................god.
boy, it just wouldn't be the same if it were JUST genetics and talent. <!-/Post: 2836-!><!-Post: 2884-!>
By Dr. Jimmy on Tuesday, November 30, 1999 - 11:59 am:
I can't remember the exact quote, as I don't have it handy, but there was an
interview c.1966 where Brian is talking about the new "spiritual" sound, and
says something to the effect of, "I believe in God, but not necessarily the
typical image of God...more like the essence of all religion. Yeah. The essence
of all religion."
In fact, John Lennon said something similar in the apology for his "bigger than Jesus" quote. <!-/Post: 2884-!><!-Post: 2914-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 12:36 am:
I am sorry if i stired up a lot of deep passions here that bring people to
near blows. That was not my intent. My intent is expressed in the opening post
that i just wanted to know were there any Christians out there that loved the
Beach Boys music and how that squared with their total life of faith in Jesus.
That is not to exclude anyone at all, just to explain that i didn't start this
thread to debate theology. That is also why i have offered my email address
which many of you have used to carry on the discussion about theology and faith.
There was a time in my life when i didn't believe in God at all really, and the there was something innocent and wholesome about the Beach Boys that really kept me in an attitude of hope. Maybe I am ascribing too much spiritual influence to a group of entertainers. Its amazing what things a teenager thinks are important. I thought the Beach Boys were absolutely essential to my sanity when I was 15 in 1976. I appreciate them a lot more now as entertainment and artistic inspiration, and not the salvation of my soul, which properly belongs to God, not any entertainers. <!-/Post: 2914-!><!-Post: 2919-!>
By BrianFan on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 05:56 am:
"..Making love can always get you through the night, but True Love's there to
catch you when you fall..."
-Brian Wilson, Where Has Love Been? <!-/Post: 2919-!><!-Post: 2926-!>
By Dr. Jimmy on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:13 am:
I know you had only the best intentions when starting this thread. However, I think that the main reason some have objected to it is that it has become a thread first and foremost about God, and then Brian Wilson, rather than vice versa. Were it more a discussion of spiritual or Christian themes in Brian's music, I don't think anyone would mind. But it eventually became a sort of "social club" for Christian BW fans to toss religious-speak back and forth.
I respect your beliefs and your right to express them, but I, and I think several others, believe that this is not the proper forum for the type of discussion this has become (whether through accident or design).
Dr. Jimmy <!-/Post: 2926-!><!-Post: 2953-!>
By John Harris on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 09:02 pm:
I disagree. I think this is an excellent forum for this discussion and thank him for bringing it up. <!-/Post: 2953-!><!-Post: 2956-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Wednesday, December 1, 1999 - 10:46 pm:
I may be wrong, but i think this is the longest thread on this BB. That surely says something!
I LOVE Brian's music and have been hearing,playing and singing it for years. When my soul feels locked up or depressed, even though I often pray, I reach instinctively for my guitar and sing "I Wasn't Made For These Times." I play "Warmth of the Sun" in that mood as well. There are tons of Beach Boys songs I play and sing. The Beach Boys are my musical first love. But Jesus is my FIRST love.
I can't tell you how many times I've been down, blue and feeling defeated by my failures and sins, and strummed and sang "You Still Believe In Me". That has helped me for years to unlock all the dammed up emotions inside, and sometimes enables me to pray better. That's just me.
Art is what you get out of it. Not always what the artist intended. Although I am sure Brian wouldn't object to me getting my feelings to God by using his songs. <!-/Post: 2956-!><!-Post: 2958-!>
ByAndrew Gladwin (Andrew) on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 12:34 am:
The way this board is set up is such that those who have no interest in the
thread or want to avoid religious discussions can easily avoid it. I also don't
want to be too picky on threads which are somewhat off-topic, and in fact this
one has often gone back to Brian and his music anyway. I think many of us will
feel we have learned a lot on this thread and have appreciated people sharing a
bit of their lives and deepest feelings here. In fact, given the history of the
board, it has been amazing that it hasn't degenerated into a mudslinging fest.
My only practical problem is that a thread this long can be an editing nightmare if I have to take out individual posts. So from your overworked admin, can I just make another call for love and mercy to each other on this board and refrain from personal attacks. I am sure that's something all true fans of Brian can believe in. <!-/Post: 2958-!><!-Post: 2989-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 06:09 pm:
Late at night
I think about the love of this whole world...
Lots of different people everywhere....
And, when i go anywhere,
I see love
I see love
I see love...
from "THis Whole World", one of my all time favorite Beach Boys songs.
That's what i'm trying to do. Help me, Lord!
-Johnny, who believes that the ultimate Good Vibrations come from the Lord <!-/Post: 2989-!><!-Post: 2991-!>
ByScooby Don't on Thursday, December 2, 1999 - 07:42 pm:
"Help me, Lord!"?
naw, Help me, Rhonda!!! <!-/Post: 2991-!><!-Post: 3008-!>
By Old Sol on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:12 am:
Brianfan--Aren't the words to that song written by Joe Thomas?(not Brian). <!-/Post: 3008-!><!-Post: 3009-!>
By BrianFan on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 08:48 am:
Old Sol, Actually that song is credited to three people: Brian Wilson/Andy
Brian was the "messenger" who delivered those words to my heart.
Who wrote that actual line, out of the three, I don't know. <!-/Post: 3009-!><!-Post: 3016-!>
ByVince Welsh on Friday, December 3, 1999 - 01:33 pm:
I believe that Brian Wilson is a messenger straight from God. No joke - I don't even go to church. <!-/Post: 3016-!><!-Post: 3268-!>
By mick on Saturday, December 11, 1999 - 10:13 pm:
I wouldn't think that Brain was a traditional Christian from his statements
and such. But I was recently able to listen to the rarely heard Wilson/Paley
song "God Did It", and it sounds like an evangelical gospel song. It goes
through the Old and New Testaments, talks about Jesus being raised from the
dead, and about Jesus "dying to save my soul".
It sounds like Paley is singing the lead. Some say that it is Brian doing the background vocals, though it is hard for me to tell. <!-/Post: 3268-!><!-Post: 3399-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Wednesday, December 15, 1999 - 05:10 am:
Well, I AM a Christian and I thank God for Brian Wilson. I pray that Brian lets the love of Jesus come into his heart and save his soul. Wouldn't it be nice to be with Brian in heaven? <!-/Post: 3399-!><!-Post: 3404-!>
By Just Say No No on Wednesday, December 15, 1999 - 08:11 am:
Are you getting bored for some more attention John?
Worry about your own soul, and leave Brian's alone.
Heaven is NOT an exclusive country club, although people like you would like to have us all believing that it is.
Why do "Christians" insist on pushing their beliefs down everybodys throats?
It has a rank communistic smell to it, if you ask me. <!-/Post: 3404-!><!-Post: 3408-!>
By manki on Wednesday, December 15, 1999 - 09:29 am:
Why do non-Christians believe that when Christians state their beliefs it is
pushing down everyone's throats, but think that stating their dogmatic view that
there "are many roads to heaven" is not?
::It has a rank communistic smell to it, if you ask me.::
No, communists wants the censorship of religious beliefs, not the free expression of them. <!-/Post: 3408-!><!-Post: 3413-!>
By Dr. Jimmy on Wednesday, December 15, 1999 - 10:15 am:
I don't have any problem with Christians stating their beliefs. It's when
they insist that they are the only way to salvation that it rubs me the wrong
Also, the whole philosophy of "many roads to heaven" isn't pushing anything down people's throats...it's an expression of the belief that all religions are equally valid, and that people should believe what they wish to believe, and make their own path, rather than adhere to a particular religion simply out of fear that they will go to hell if they believe otherwise.
I have no problem with Christianity. It's just not my cup of tea. My problem is with the few Christians who are shockingly intolerant of other beliefs, and look down at anyone who has different beliefs or lifestyles. They are in the minority, but because they are so outspoken, some people are convinced that all Christians are like that. <!-/Post: 3413-!><!-Post: 3441-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, December 16, 1999 - 04:19 am:
Well then, Jesus Christ is the most intolerant man who ever lived.
He spent his life healing the sick, feeding the poor, forgiving the damned, bringing hope to the hopless and making insane people well again. After being crucified, he was raised from the dead and seen by thousands of people alive before being received again into heaven. He preached God's love for all mankind and sent his followers into the world to heal the afflicted and proclaim the grace and forgiveness of God. He also said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."
Now, either Jesus is the biggest liar and phony who ever lived and his followers should be contained at all cost or else he really is the Son of God and THE way of salvation.
Ascribing the "one way" of salvation to individual Christians is wrong. That message comes from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. You decide. <!-/Post: 3441-!><!-Post: 3453-!>
ByDr. Jimmy on Thursday, December 16, 1999 - 10:16 am:
"Now, either Jesus is the biggest liar and phony who ever lived and his
followers should be
contained at all cost or else he really is the Son of God and THE way of salvation."
I think there's a third possibility here. That Jesus may have had his words or deeds exagerated or distorted by a few over-zealous followers. I'm not saying that that's definitely what happened, but I think it's a possibility that not everything in the gospel is recorded exactly as it happened. People distort things over time, especially if they want it to appear more convincing or desirable.
Example: Now, I'm a little rusty on my biblical history, so correct me wherever necessary, but I seem to recall that many biblical scholars agree that Mark was the first gospel written. And, as I remember, Mark, in his description of the Easter morning tomb scene, records that the women were spoken to by "a young man in white", or something to that effect. The other three gospels describe this person as being an angel or angels. Was it an angel? If it was, why does Mark just call him some guy wearing white? If it wasn't, how did Matthew, Luke, and John reach the conclusion that it was?
But I'm getting off of the Brian Wilson subject. My main point here is that God, if there is a God, is perfect, but humankind most certainly is not. And scripture may be divinely inspired, but man, through all of his flaws, can make all sorts of mistakes, or take all sorts of liberties while transcribing it. So I'm hesitant to accept all of the Bible as absolute Word of God.
I'd be interested in continuing this discussion by e-mail, if you'd like. I'm including my address. <!-/Post: 3453-!><!-Post: 3461-!>
ByScooby Don't on Thursday, December 16, 1999 - 01:07 pm:
I wouldn't accept it either, it's been translated TOO many times in MANY MANY
different languages....things are going to get lost.
Also, what about the jews? they don't believe Jesus was this wonderful savior and prophet....he was just some guy....NOW, are they wrong or right? is that possible....for ONE religion to be right?
So, get off the cross and talk Brian/Beach Boys.....PLEASE. <!-/Post: 3461-!><!-Post: 3471-!>
By Isn't It Obvious? on Thursday, December 16, 1999 - 04:49 pm:
The premise to all of this is that the Bible is the word of God. There's nothing but faith to back that. And of course Brian's going to heaven. It wouldn't be heaven without him. <!-/Post: 3471-!><!-Post: 3490-!>
Bytgfnyc on Friday, December 17, 1999 - 07:50 am:
Not to mention, Brian has already done his time in hell... <!-/Post: 3490-!><!-Post: 3506-!>
By Jeanne on Friday, December 17, 1999 - 06:09 pm:
Nancy you are right about that. <!-/Post: 3506-!><!-Post: 3510-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Friday, December 17, 1999 - 07:42 pm:
The Words of God make their appeal to each man's conscience in the sight of God. There is no error in that. What you do with those Words is something you must give account for when you meet your Maker. <!-/Post: 3510-!><!-Post: 3514-!>
By NorCalSurfer on Saturday, December 18, 1999 - 04:12 am:
In the past I'd choosen not to contribute to this particular thread in the
belief that its primary purpose was to promote religious dogma under the guise
of love for the music of Brian Wilson. Spout a little scripture, connect the
dots and presto! Brian is walking on water and Jesus is shootin the pier at La
The comments of Proctor seem to reflect the opinions of a dangerously narrow mind, and are ripe for rebutal. Nevertheless, the focus here is intended to be on Brian and his music. I am able to read the Bible as well as the next guy. I dont need it quoted to me here. <!-/Post: 3514-!><!-Post: 3538-!>
By RJA on Saturday, December 18, 1999 - 02:46 pm:
Just thought I'd bring the discussion back to where it began. I love Jesus. I
also happen to be a Brian Wilson fan. I don't think you people have fully
understood John's point in even starting this thread. He's a Christian, first
and foremost. He also happens to appreciate Brian's music and finds that it
resonates well with a lot (not all) of truths and emotions we find in the
Scriptures. Thanks, John! I'll email you soon and we can talk further about BW
and our faith
Rick <!-/Post: 3538-!><!-Post: 3546-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Sunday, December 19, 1999 - 01:56 am:
I wonder why these guys get so hostile when they know going in what this thread is all about. No one is holding a gun to their head making them read my "fear-mongering" and coercive mind-control.
Did you ever notice the way many of Brian's songs begin with the sound of a child's music box (You Still Believe in Me, Wouldn't it be nice, Happy days are Here Again, others)? I love that and it reminds me of the innocence of childhood. Childlike faith is commended (even required) by the Lord for admission to the Kingdom and I always get that sweet reminder of innocence and purity when I hear that sound.
A little innocence and purity goes a long way. Brian and Van Dyke Parks make that the message of "Surf's Up."
I heard the word
A children's song...
...child is the father of man...
I am very sad that so many people see the proclaiming of the Gospel as "mind control", etc...it's the children's song referred to in Surf's Up...
Shalom <!-/Post: 3546-!><!-Post: 3572-!>
By Good God on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 12:09 am:
"Childlike faith is commended (even
required) by the Lord for admission to the
Well, I'm glad YOU know EXACTLY what Jesus wants.
"I don't care if it rains of freezes,
as long as I got my plastic jesus
riding on the dashboard of my car...." <!-/Post: 3572-!><!-Post: 3576-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 01:19 am:
I was going to e-mail you to discuss this offline, but I saw by your e-mail address that you are not amicable to reverent discussion. Too bad. <!-/Post: 3576-!><!-Post: 3577-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 01:23 am:
Jesus makes no effort to conceal what he wants. He has sent his followers into all the world to proclaim it from the rooftops to every creature under heaven. Childlike simplicity is not a secret qualification; it is the attitude of humility and meekness we must possess to receive the love of God in our inmost being.
I have found that Brian's music is awash with a certain innocent quality that seems to have no appeal to you.
Too bad. <!-/Post: 3577-!><!-Post: 3581-!>
By Jeanne on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 06:20 am:
John, people don't in general find fault with the teachings of Christianity. ( I have problems with it as you know) It's when Christians start up with this "We're the only people going to Heaven so you better find Christ or you're going to Hell!" stuff. You're too intelligent not to know that this sounds like smugness and pride, which goeth before a fall. And when you suggest that you're not sure that Brian is going to Heaven! Them's fighting words over here. But when you point out similarities between Brian's music and the Christian message,as you did in you post about the innocence of his music, that's OK with me, though I am not a Christian, because it's educational and it's about Brian. Brian is the reason for the board. I'd hate to see this thread go. It's gotta be unique on the BB web ring. <!-/Post: 3581-!><!-Post: 3582-!>
By Gary L. on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 06:30 am:
Well John,if you hadn't denigrated other posters'
religious points of view and showed a little more
open-mindedness in the first place you wouldn't
have gotten hostile responses.Some people get annoyed when they're "preached to" if it differs from what they believe or brought up to believe.
My beliefs may differ from yours but I'm not going
to say your way of receiving God is any worse than
mine. <!-/Post: 3582-!><!-Post: 3584-!>
By Gary L. on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 06:43 am:
Jeanne,I completely agree with your statements in
your last post but what did you mean by "goeth before a fall"? <!-/Post: 3584-!><!-Post: 3585-!>
By Just Say No No on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 07:17 am:
Amen, Gary L.
Jeanne, John has an agenda. And that agenda is to spread the Gospel, according to "John".
Too bad is right.
Too bad Admin doesn't see it that way, and allows this flame throwing nonsense to continue on a message board dedicated to Brian Wilson, and his music.
Hey, but at least we know where all parties stand on this subject.
Peace to all, and remember God loves all of us.
Unconditionally. <!-/Post: 3585-!><!-Post: 3588-!>
By Jeanne on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 08:13 am:
Gary L, Just Say No NO,
The expression is "Pride goeth before a fall." Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If you have pride, you're bound to fall.
Just San No NO,
supposing a Hindu got on board to say, "wow, here's the way Brian's music jives with my faith" and then proceeded to explain it. That would be cool to me because it points out the universiality of his music, and also that a Hindu and I could have something in common. But if the Hindu went on to say, "and by the way, my religion is the only true religion and the rest of ya'll and maybe Brian are going to Hindu Hell" that's when he'd be going too far.
I agree with Admin. that in general this thread has contributed to the discussion on Brian. Speculating on Brian's beliefs is valid. It's natural also for us to be concerned and vigilant about this thread, because we know how many wars have been fought and how much injustice has been perpetrated in the name of religion. <!-/Post: 3588-!><!-Post: 3600-!>
By Confused on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 12:29 pm:
True, Brian's music is very innocent.
That's what I like about it too.
HOWEVER, It bugs me when you try to make Brian into this "messenger" for Christians.
True, he IS "blessed", though.
I also feel that this is just a front. Using the discussion of the music of Brian Wilson to discuss YOUR beliefs. We're all going to hell, so who cares?!?!
AND did you say YOU were in the military? did you mean "the Christ Army"? if you meant "military" as in THE military of the USA, then "Thou shalt not KILL". Hope you never go into battle. <!-/Post: 3600-!><!-Post: 3602-!>
ByWild Honey on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 12:35 pm:
I am enjoying this discussion....it's very interesting......and i don't want
it nixed either.....but c'mon....LESS jesus, MORE BRIAN!!
I don't know....i think we've exhausted this thread.....? <!-/Post: 3602-!><!-Post: 3607-!>
By Gary L. on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 02:43 pm:
I've been wondering if Brian's first wife,Marilyn,
is Jewish.I'm not sure but I seem to remember that
being pointed out in the BW A&E biography.If she
is,I wonder if she raised Carnie & Wendy that way.Does anyone know more about this? <!-/Post: 3607-!><!-Post: 3614-!>
By Arlen on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 05:58 pm:
Even as a Christian, I've felt a little uncomfortable with the idea that the
way to the
Father is ONLY through Jesus. However, if I'm
going to follow Christ, I really have to believe
what He said. I do believe that Jesus makes known
the truth to everyone for them to accept or reject, and doesn't just do a blanket judgement based on His way being the ONLY way.Hey, John wasn't the one who came up with the idea that Jesus was the only way. Give him a break! This
site was created for the sharing of Christian beliefs relating to Brian's music. What many of you perceive to be John's judgement, is simply reiterating what Jesus said. If you believe Buddha
or Mohammed teaches only THEIR way, go for it. But
to try to make Christianity more palatable by saying "Oh, I'll just do it MY way and I'm sure God will understand" is to cheapen the Gospel. Let's keep focusing on Brian, but let's not deny the basic tenets of Christianity. Christians aren't being judgemental when they are just repeating the words of Christ. <!-/Post: 3614-!><!-Post: 3620-!>
ByKCJohnny on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 08:43 pm:
Arlen, thank you so much for your kind words and common sense stance.
FWIW, I never claimed Brian was going to hell or that anyone else was either. That is for God, not me to decide. What i did say is that I prayed Brian would receive Salvation. For that i will not apologize.
I also have not denigrated anyone's religion. I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the way of salvation. God can save anyone but has given His son to the world as the means of deliverance from death. He has shown this by raising him from the dead. If that rubs you the wrong way, I'm sorry. In the end, we will all receive the reward that is just. <!-/Post: 3620-!><!-Post: 3629-!>
ByScooby Don't on Tuesday, December 21, 1999 - 12:11 am:
"This site was created for the sharing of Christian beliefs relating to
You are sadly mistaken, my friend. This site is dedicated to BRIAN WILSON, not Jesus, not christianity, not God.
amen. <!-/Post: 3629-!><!-Post: 3651-!>
ByJust Me on Tuesday, December 21, 1999 - 10:49 am:
I have avoided commenting on this thread for a very long time. Today I guess
I will. BTW, this is long.
I believe in God. I believe neither in religion (man's creation) or the concept of Jesus as the son of God. I love Brian Wilson and the music God gave him to grace the world.
Brian has been blessed with great gifts-- the abilities to heal through his music, to change our moods and lift our spirits by the way he composed and by the way he constructed that angel choir of vocals. Politics and personalities aside, the Beach Boys of the mid-1960's were nothing short of an aural miracle.
But for one to say "I prayed Brian would receive Salvation" sounds arrogant-- although I know it was not meant thusly. How do YOU know Brian has NOT received "salvation"? How do you know YOU have? If "the Bible tells me so" then I claim fallacy-- because the Bible is bits and pieces of borrowed and modified folklore. Do you believe in the Ten Commandments? They are a good basic precept for living a moral life. However, take a look at the Hammurabic code which predates it by at least a thousand years. No mention of Moses in that version and it reads practically word for word.
Brian has performed a great service to the world. He used a popular form of his time (rock 'n' roll) to spread joy and make light our spirits. His is a compelling story-- the love and joy he creates existing in stark juxtaposition to the life he has led, the dark moments, the unrelenting life-sapping burden of mental illness (which can be medically controlled but never alleviated) and his own self-inflicted pain. He inspires within us compassion and mercy.
It's hard for me to find logic in the concept of accepting Jesus as the way to salvation. If God so loved the world, why didn't He/She bless the children of ages past BEFORE the appearance of Jesus? If you say "Maybe He/She did but we don't know it," then you're admitting there are things we don't know. As other posters have noted, a document that was assembled over long periods of time, which contains gospels constructed 90 years after the appearance of Jesus, which has been translated to and from many languages and tailored for different audiences and was edited by papal revisionists-- is not reliable. Were the multitudes born before the time of Christ who worshipped bulls (a significant component of ancient religions) all damned? How could they be "saved" without being given knowledge of Christ? If God is perfect, how could he be so short-sighted?
I believe there may have been an historical character named Jesus. He likely had followers. But so did that woman with the bullet scars on her back whom people believed was Anastasia, daughter of the last Czar. Until she died a few years ago, there was doubt; there was faith that she had survived the bullets of the Bolsheviks and WAS a Romanoff. DNA tests performed after her death proved she was not. That was a MODERN story, with a living character. Even the most dogmatic Bible follower must concede that there has been so much lost in the past 2,000 years that we really don't know what happened. A crazy guy who hit his head could have stumbled out of the mountains and said he was the Son of God. If he "looked" the part, if enough people thought, "Well, couldn't hurt to listen to him" and if his message was one they wanted to hear, they were willing to believe. Does that mean he WAS?
Then there is the element of faith. Mine is that there is a God. And I believe in the Big Bang. Whether it came about by a collision of cosmic gases or God clapping His/Her hands and saying "Let there be light," I can't say. I wasn't there. I know I live my life to try and better the planet. I value life, I honor life, I value the godliness I encounter in people. I think of how good He/She is to have put so much good in people that they go out of their ways to help make the world a better place. I thank Him/Her for giving us Brian Wilson and a music that truly heals.
The full moon shining on the sea, Mozart, Brian, a tree, a dog chasing its tail, a baby's smile, those breathtaking pictures beamed back from the Hubble space telescope-- those represent God to me more than any piece of literature.
Gary L: "I've been wondering if Brian's first wife,Marilyn, is Jewish....I wonder if she raised Carnie & Wendy that way.Does anyone know more about this? "
Marilyn is Jewish; as to how Carnie and Wendy were raised, I can't answer.
Arlen: "However, if I'm going to follow Christ, I really have to believe what He said."
How do you KNOW what he said? Were the stenographers jotting down every word on cuneiform as he spoke? Were the reporters out on the news choppers? "We're live on the mountaintop. There seems to be a crowd gathering to hear a sermon. Ahab, are you there? Ahab, our man on the ground has a closer look. Let's toss it to him." Even in this day of recorded/replayable media, people are misquoted. Add in 2,000 years, and that little interval in the Middle Ages where so-called Christians killed people and pillaged historical documents in the name of religion and we realize there are tremendous gaps in the record.
Arlen: "This site was created for the sharing of Christian beliefs relating to Brian's music."
I believe Arlen meant "this thread."
Arlen: "What many of you perceive to be John's judgement, is simply reiterating what Jesus said."
It's what John BELIEVES Jesus said. He believes there WAS a Jesus who WAS the Son of God whose EXACT words were recorded in the Bible. I believe there MAY have been a Jesus (albeit not supported by the secular record) who was a wise and talented teacher-- or a Class A con artist, the Emperor Norton of his day. I believe the Bible is literature, not history. Am I wrong? Who's to say? It's clear mine is not the more popular view. Does that make it less valid? Galileo was once a "heretic," stating a minority view that the earth moved around the sun and not the other way around. Remember, none of us were there. We're all going on the same evidence.
Then John popped back in.
John: "FWIW, I never claimed Brian was going to hell or that anyone else was either."
By saying you pray for Brian to receive Salvation suggests he's not going to heaven. The Catholics have Purgatory and then there's hell so dogmatically, there aren't too many more spots in which he could end up.
John: "What i did say is that I prayed Brian would receive Salvation."
Brian has been more blessed by God than any of us. He has also been more cursed. Like Job, he takes the trials as they come and continues to create music and heavenly harmonies that inhabit his mind. He has the facility to take those sounds out of the cosmos and put them out for us to hear. He is a conduit to something we can't touch. But he allows us to share it. Perhaps that is the way to salvation, to share the grace of God in a beautiful and encompassing way. It's his own personal gospel.
John: "I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the way of salvation. God can save anyone but has given His son to the world as the means of deliverance from death."
I have no problem with you believing that. However, it's an indictment of my perceptions and the perceptions of other religions, an indictment of ancient history and the countless people who worshipped the bull (the "false god Baal," some would say, but it was THE god to worship and to do otherwise would have been heresy). I am willing to admit I don't know the answers to the cosmic questions. You have no doubt to the answers because the Bible tells you so. But I see the Bible as literature, mythology based on a dimly-remembered history from pre-historic times with some re-tooled pagan tradition thrown in to make it palatable for early converts.
John is a good man, a sincere man. He has found a road map for his life and he wants to share it with others. I don't think those with a different map are misguided, lost or damned. People who care for one another, who nurture one another, who try to improve the state of the world, who achieve success through hard work and not by trampling the rights and spirits of others, and likely, those who recognize the inherent goodness in Brian Wilson's music :-) are also good people, whether they believe in Jesus or not. Would you rather be trapped in an elevator with a good, soulful Brian-Wilson-music-loving-person who doesn't believe in Jesus-- or one of those TV evangelists who spout piety and humility then go and fornicate and construct grand mansions built on the backs of followers while boasting of their "relationship with God"?
I know Brian personally. His spiritual beliefs are his own and they are a mix of many things. He has read the Bible, he also discusses karma and past lives and the I CHING. He also never has a mean thing to say about anyone, even those who have most blatantly, obviously and fearsomely wronged him. And when he is most wounded, most hurt, he looks for salvation in his gift-- his music. He loves it, he cherishes it and he never, ever takes it for granted. He's been blessed; he's been through more trials by fire than people will ever know. He is the eternal phoenix. He makes us wonder about the human condition, the fragility of life, the nature of great gifts, love, pain and above all, glorious harmony. He invites everyone in, gives them a common ground (disparate people from all over the world, different ages, different walks of life people this message board-- pretty wonderful, don't you think?), heals us with the songs of his soul and brings joy. Sound familiar?
I thank God for bringing Brian Wilson to the world to share with us a glorious gift from the Great Beyond. If there is such a thing as salvation (wouldn't it be nice to be rewarded for being good to one another because it was the RIGHT AND MORAL WAY TO BE rather than being threatened with eternal damnation and adherence to one road map?), then I believe Brian has already achieved it through his trials. He is not perfect, not any more than was the Jesus in whom many believe. But he has brought a form of perfection to the world. Without the music, he would have been lost. The blessing has saved him-- and it has uplifted the world.
I wish you Peace. <!-/Post: 3651-!><!-Post: 3677-!>
By Arlen on Tuesday, December 21, 1999 - 06:29 pm:
"Just Me" expressed his/her thoughts honestly and eloquently. Some good
points. But it's interesting
that the book of Proverbs (yes, I know, BEFORE Jesus),teaches that there will always be those who
suppose they know more than God. Sorry, "Scooby Don't", I'm not as savvy as you with correct terminology - I should have said, "This 'thread'
was created for the sharing of Christian beliefs
relating to Brian's music." Just take a look at
John's heading of October 9, 1999.
Anything having to do with Christianity brings forth more than mere questioning and doubt, which
I believe God honors. As the authors of the gospels warned, there will be outright hatred.
I enjoy the honest and civil debates between those
who believe in the essence of what the Bible teaches and those who don't. But if you read between the lines of some messages you can sense
how threatening it is for some and how much they
hate the idea that God may have manifested Himself
in Jesus. I think there is a lot more "judging others" going on by some believers than by Christians.
Anyway - please don't judge Christianity by the
mistakes and ramblings of Christians, go to the
Source. I'm so full of imperfections that I could never adequately defend my faith or "prove" anything. I'm trying my best to get down the road
that I am so sure is the right one.
Brian is supposed to be the focus. I got all caught up in trying to stave off the attacks on Jesus. His music is so innocent relative to the
material that comprises most songs these days.
I'm so happy that his music touches such a variety
of people with different beliefs. I really have to
respect/admire ANYONE, regardless of belief who
feels the magic of Brian's music. What a wonderful
common ground we share! <!-/Post: 3677-!><!-Post: 3687-!>
ByKCJohnny on Tuesday, December 21, 1999 - 09:23 pm:
It would be easy for me to interpret your remarks as intolerant and as unsubstantiated in fact as you have alleged those of the Christian faith are.
Instead I will thank you for your contributions to the discussion. My prayer for Brian's salvation is no different than my prayer for my own salvation.
It appears you haven't done any serious investigation into the claims of Christ's historicity, divinity or theological content. It is not as ambiguous as you make it out to be. After all, you believe in Hammuarbi. You never saw him, either. The archeological, historical and liturgical history of the Bible is not difficult to investigate. It is at least as compelling as the evidence for Hammurabi's code. And you believe in the big bang. Where is the evidence for that?
We all bring our own pre-conceived ideas and world-view to any conception of God. In the end, it is the soul who sincerely seeks God with all his/her heart who will find Him and have God revealed to him or her. This requires the spiritual qualities of humility and meekness and faith more than the ability to cross swords over the reliability of sacred texts or material evidence and arguments.
You say you know Brian Wilson. Well, we all know him too, through his heart poured out in music. That is also how we know Jesus Christ, through his heart poured out in the love of his people, that bunch of deceived losers called Christians.
I wish the whole world could feel the love of God I have in my heart today.
Johnny <!-/Post: 3687-!><!-Post: 3707-!>
By Jeanne on Wednesday, December 22, 1999 - 09:11 am:
Just Me, I appreciate your post, especially the last two paragraphs. I'm glad
Brian has caring friends like you. Although we on the board disagree about
religion, and many things where Brin is concerned, one thing we can all agree
with is that we want Brian to have peace and happiness in his life. Merry
Christmas to you.
Merry Christmas Brian, and may God keep you. <!-/Post: 3707-!><!-Post: 3733-!>
ByScooby Don't on Wednesday, December 22, 1999 - 08:55 pm:
If you meant "thread" then TYPE "thread".
I can't read minds, unfortunately. <!-/Post: 3733-!><!-Post: 3734-!>
ByScooby Don't on Wednesday, December 22, 1999 - 09:03 pm:
Can't prove the big bang.
But procreation through Adam and Eve? that's inbreeding. And incest...oh, that's against God's law, what a pity.
As for some of the recent posts i've read, very good. Let's keep the focus on Brian. <!-/Post: 3734-!><!-Post: 3775-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, December 23, 1999 - 05:12 pm:
May the Coming of our Lord this season make you all joyful in Your Summer's
Johnny <!-/Post: 3775-!><!-Post: 3786-!>
By GRiN on Thursday, December 23, 1999 - 10:30 pm:
...and Merry Christmas, too! <!-/Post: 3786-!><!-Post: 3841-!>
ByAdieu or Die on Sunday, December 26, 1999 - 08:05 am:
"But if you read between the lines of some messages you can sense how threatening it is for some and how much they hate the idea that God may have manifested Himself in Jesus. I think there is a lot more "judging others" going on by some believers than by Christians."
I don't think that being threatened is the underlying motivation for these posts. I think that what the non-Christians have been trying to say is that they respect the beliefs of Christianity, but they resent being told it is the ONLY path to salvation. I think that many will concede that 'if Christianity works for you, then go for it, just leave me alone'.
Many of the points raised are good ones. It is a little far fetched to believe that millions of souls before the arrival of Christ were damned. It is just as hard to believe that the millions upon millions of non-Christians alive today are also damned. It is also a little far fetched to believe that the Bible is an unbiased historical document without error. These arguments have all been raised and discussed quite thoroughly and eloquently. I won't repeat them here.
This thread started in the context of Christianity only and evolved to a general level from there. We're pretty much now talking about Brian's music in the context of religious beliefs and faith here in general, are we not? If so, then I think feelings would settle alot easier if posters would take more care in stating, "This is what I believe..." rather than "This is the way it is...".
Would that be so hard? What are Christians losing by treating non-Christians with respect and dignity for their own beliefs? You may be thinking "Respect doesn't have anything to do with it. Of course the posters here have my respect!", but I would disagree. Respect and dignity is really what it all boils down to. <!-/Post: 3841-!><!-Post: 3873-!>
ByScooby Don't on Monday, December 27, 1999 - 09:26 pm:
adieu or die:
Thanks, that's what I've been mad about. I just don't like that attitude. We can talk about Brian's music in a religious sense and even draw some parallels, but I just didn't like the idea of "jesus is the ONLY way". *That* bugged me.
good post. *S* <!-/Post: 3873-!><!-Post: 3915-!>
ByIain B on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 07:01 pm:
Adieu or die your post is actually one of the most christian things I have
read in a while.
Peace be with you and "I believe" that it does not matter how you get to spirit only that you do, we are all physical and spiritual beings and have to work out things for ourselves how we get in touch with our spirituality, listening to Brian Wilson's music is a pretty good place to start.
Peace Love and Mercy to all
Iain B <!-/Post: 3915-!><!-Post: 3924-!>
ByWild Honey on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 09:09 pm:
oh!! a big HELLO to Iain!!!
and a big YES to Brian! yer correct, Iain. *S*
the Not so dumb ~angel~ <!-/Post: 3924-!><!-Post: 3926-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Tuesday, December 28, 1999 - 11:08 pm:
So its OK to believe in Jesus as long as you don't think of it as TRUTH.
And who damned all people before Jesus? You can scroll all the way through this thread and you will not find any reference by me about who is going to Gehenna and who isn't.
All truth is God's Truth. Whether you have enough truth in you to overcome sin and death is between you and God. God has given us Christ to supply the fulness of truth in human form.
I think I am going to let this thread die, inasmuch as i am perpetuating the discourse about universal salvation.
I just wanted to make friendly contact with other Christians on the topic of Brian's music. I would be lying if I did not admit that some of the comments on this thread have hurt me very deeply. That's part of faith.
Peace be with you all,
(in case I don't come back)
Johnny <!-/Post: 3926-!><!-Post: 3931-!>
By NoNameNecessary on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 02:40 am:
Of course, this is my opinion - pure and simple as it were, but... I am a
christian, I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in God. But I don't believe in
christians, I long ago learned that christians are the most ugly and biased
people, that use their religion and the bible to hurt and mangle people. This
has turned me off from my faith, but not my beliefs (I'm sure that I'll hear
about that distinction, though). I'm tired of all conversations with christians
constantly trying to turn me on to Christ, because I'm not actively giving
testimony to all it is assumed that I don't understand Christ. I do understand,
I just dislike that judgmental attitude that christians espouse as
enlightenment. I call it arrogance. I find it impossible to believe that so many
people who did not believe in Christ will burn in hell. I find it hard to
believe that Ghandi was turned away at the pearly gates.
These comments aren't directed at anyone on this thread, actually - this thread has no interest for me here, I only popped in give my opinion. Sorry. <!-/Post: 3931-!><!-Post: 3937-!>
By Just Say No No on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 07:43 am:
Jeanne once said something on this thread that summed up all of what Brian's
music does to me, and also, I presume, does to so many others.
If I may quote you Jeanne, "Brian gets me closer to God than God does."
Does it matter how you get there, as long as you get there? It does to some.
Thank you Brian, for showing me the love of God through your music.
Peace to all, and remember, God loves all of us.
Unconditionally. <!-/Post: 3937-!><!-Post: 3939-!>
By GRiN on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 08:30 am:
Johnny: (If you do come back)
Sorry that some of our comments hurt you. But you hurt us to. It's not fun to have someone repeatedly shove a hot steaming pile of dogma in your face. Which is the only aspect of Christianity I've ever disapproved of. I've never had a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu try and convert me. Many Christians thrive on just that.
I understand your original intentions on this thread, but let's not forget, you were one of the main forces that drove it into a platform for Christianity in general, rather than a discussion about Brian.
Also:I'm not familiar with "Gehenna"; is it a nice vaction spot? What's the weather like? If it's warm, I may head there sometime in February.
GRiN <!-/Post: 3939-!><!-Post: 3940-!>
ByAdieu or Die on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 08:53 am:
This post has nothing to do with BW, and for that, I apologize.
"So its OK to believe in Jesus as long as you don't think of it as TRUTH.
Don't assume that all non-believers are denying that Jesus is TRUTH. They are only asking you to consider that the same TRUTH may be seen from many different angles. And if you cannot do that, then at least allow others the respect to choose their own way, just as they should allow you the respect to choose yours.
"And who damned all people before Jesus? You can
scroll all the way through this thread and you will not find any reference by me about who is going to Gehenna and who isn't."
No, not overtly anyway, and I'm certainly glad you did not. I think maybe you are taking this a little too personally.
There are some posters who definitely crossed the line in a most distasteful manner. You never did that. But if you want to know, here are but a few examples of your past comments that set people off the wrong way:
1) "Its just that there is so much "cowboy" and "lone ranger" Christianity out there that I feel its my duty to herd people toward the Church, which is where I KNOW you can meet Jesus, no ifs, ands, or buts about it."
You can see why both Christians and non-Christians alike could interpret this (most likely wrongly and unfairly) as a little arrogant. Who in this day and age is going to let another mortal 'herd' them anywhere?
2) "He also said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.' Now, either Jesus is the biggest liar and phony who ever lived and his followers should be contained at all cost or else he really is the Son of God and THE way of salvation. Ascribing the "one way" of salvation to individual Christians is wrong. That message comes from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. You decide."
Unquestionably by your own words, the implication here is that either non-Christians are damned, or Christ is a phony. Either-or. No third option.
This is the one stickler in the entire New Testament that gets everyone riled up. Perhaps Jesus said this, perhaps he did not. He could have been misquoted by a scribe. Regardless, this is what is written and what Christians repeatedly quote to non-believers that makes Christianity so unpopular to non-Christians.
Assuming Jesus DID say this, don't forget that Christianity as a faith did not exist yet. Jesus had many followers, but at this point, it was not Christianity he was preaching, it was God's word. Before the crucifiction, Jesus was talking about the Truth of God from 'first principles'. These 'first principles' exist in many other religions as well.
After Christ's Ascension, and over time, man created Christianity. They took what Jesus said very literally. You either followed His word to the letter or you did not (very key point here). They made rules. They had religious wars. Many lives were taken.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that Jesus really IS the Son of God and that He really IS the way, the Truth and the Life.
Jesus did not say "No one comes to the Father but by Christianity", he said "No one comes to the Father but by me". I personally can just as easily interpret his use of the word "me" to mean His teachings of God's 'first principles' as to mean anything else. If Jesus (by 'that' name, i.e. the one the Christians use) truly is the Son of God (i.e. again in Christian terminology), why would He deny eternal life to a Hebrew, a Muslim or a Hindu, who has also followed God's 'first principles' to the letter? I would like to think that the Jesus I know and love would do that. If He would not, I would have to seriously reconsider my faith. Where is the Goodness, the compassion, the wisdom, the Truth? How shocked all Christians would be to witness a Muslim or Hindu being greated at heaven's door by Jesus, and they addressing Him by some other name.
You see where I'm going here. John and others, I certainly don't expect you to agree with any of this. You may consider this to be extreme sacrilege. I only want to point out that there may be possibilities not previously considered whereby everyone's religious beliefs are Truth. You are right, there is only one way. But I think it comes in many cultural wrappers.
"All truth is God's Truth. Whether you have enough
truth in you to overcome sin and death is between
you and God. God has given us Christ to supply the
fulness of truth in human form."
I could not agree more. But I think that if you talk to people of other cultures, God has also given them other means whereby they can embrace his Truth. I believe it is wrong for a Christian to deny them of that.
"I think I am going to let this thread die, inasmuch as i am perpetuating the discourse about universal salvation. I just wanted to make friendly contact with other Christians on the topic of Brian's music. I would be lying if I did not admit that some of the comments on this thread have hurt me very deeply."
I am truly sorry if any of my comments have personally hurt you. I think it would be a shame to let this thread die. In many ways, it has been one of the better ones. There is no reason why you cannot make friendly contact with other Christians on this board, who feel and believe exactly as you do, and discuss the topic of Brian's music. But keep in mind that everyone has an interest in what is being said here, especially when it relates to Brian. Non-Christians have a right to read this thread too, and they have a right to be offended when they feel thay are being insulted.
Let's be kind to one another. Let's treat each other with the respect and dignity we all deserve.
Finally, let's talk a little about Brian. <!-/Post: 3940-!><!-Post: 3948-!>
By Jeanne on Wednesday, December 29, 1999 - 10:37 am:
Adieu or Die, you hit several nails on the head,with point #2 especially.
Thanks for taking the time to do that.
I want to say also that this thread has been very worthwhile. We've considered on this thread something we're all interested in: Brian and the nature of his spirituality. We've heard from people who are close to Brian. There was a spin-off thread about Brian's muse. And the Christians have been able to communicate with each other. Johnny thanks for bringing the subject up!
And on a personal note I want to say that this thread caused me to begin a correspondence with Johnny that has been, to understate it, of extreme benefit to me. <!-/Post: 3948-!><!-Post: 4065-!>
By Jeanne on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 05:48 pm:
Johnny, I wanted to say one more thing on this thread. Something that may
have gotten lost in all the sidetracking about the hell/redemption issue is that
you are an enormous Brian Wilson fan. I know from our correspondence that like
many of the men who have posted here, BW was a huge comfort to you growing up.
And if anyone heard your music-(thanks for the tape!) they'd know how inspired
you have been by BB music. I wish I had your fabulous falsetto, but alas, I'm
merely a soprano. Little Surfer Girl is very fine, and your original stuff has
great BW inspired harmonies. I am amazed at how you were able to achieve that
sound with such crude equipment there in the DMZ. We both know that Brian's
music is a uniting force, otherwise how could two such different people as you
and me have connected?
Happy New Year my friend!
Jeanne <!-/Post: 4065-!><!-Post: 4068-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Sunday, January 2, 2000 - 09:29 pm:
Again, folks, it is Jesus who sent his followers into ALL the world to PREACH
the good news of salvation to ALL the WORLD. If there are other ways, why go at
I am fully willing to shoulder the brunt of the world's anger at him because of that message.
Indeed, it is to that rejection and hurt that he calls us as his true disciples.
I wish no ill upon anyone, and count it a privelege to bear the Lord's wounds.
God did not explain to any of us the whys and wherefores of the Christian Gospel; he commands us to receive the salvation graciously and lovingly offered all mankind and to spread the news to every creature.
So it is not MY agenda or MY Gospel that is in question. And if some have yet to hear, what is that to you? You have heard. If I have spoken my own words and message, it will surely fade away. If I have conveyed the Good News of Salvation faithfully, then it is that which you reject, not merely some Christian Brian Wilson fan's subjective opinions.
Jeanne, thanks for your kind words about my love of Brian and his wonderful music. I have been influenced very deeply by him as anyone who has heard my songs and vocal arrangements can tell. Thank you!
Love and Mercy,
Johnny <!-/Post: 4068-!><!-Post: 4083-!>
By Arlen on Monday, January 3, 2000 - 06:21 pm:
Good for you, Johnny; I admire your faithfulness
so much. I decided not to read any more messages
on this thread because of some of the mean-spirit-
edness. (I looked real quickly for your last
message and thought I'd say, "Well done.")
I guess my parting message to you and others is
that I FINALLY (after ALL these years) heard the
Christmas Album. On this 1991 version, some bonus
tracks were added, among which was Malotte's
"The Lord's Prayer." Whatever Brian's spiritual
belief's, at the time, he thought it to be an
important piece of music. Thanks, John, for
creating this forum. God bless you. <!-/Post: 4083-!><!-Post: 4091-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Monday, January 3, 2000 - 08:14 pm:
God Bless, you, Arlen!
Wake the World!
JP <!-/Post: 4091-!><!-Post: 4095-!>
By Tiny Tim on Monday, January 3, 2000 - 08:53 pm:
God Bless Us, Everyone. <!-/Post: 4095-!><!-Post: 4180-!>
By Miguel on Thursday, January 6, 2000 - 03:00 am:
For those who are interested in the Christian aspects/influences of Brian's
Ya'll know that the Christian group LOST DOGS recorded a song called "Jesus Loves You, Brian Wilson" (the anti-evangelicals are gonna LOVE that!) Mike Roe (both on his solo album and with the 77s) has recorded Smiley Smile-era tributes (one called "Smiley Smile") on a couple different albums. Finally, Terry Taylor (of Lost Dogs and Daniel Amos) produced an album last year called "Surfonic Water Revival" which is a 17-song tribute to the Beach Boys sound and to instr. surf music. Cameos by Phil Keaggy (mentioned above), Randy Stonehill (known to model songs in the BB's style in the past), Chuck Girard (of the Hondells) and Paul Johnson of the Packards. The whole album is dedicated to "the late great Carl Wilson."
Those of you who flinch at the sight of a cross: please, don't bother. But the rest of ya might get a kick out of it.
Miguel <!-/Post: 4180-!><!-Post: 4206-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Thursday, January 6, 2000 - 04:57 pm:
Thanks, Miguel! <!-/Post: 4206-!><!-Post: 4207-!>
By Good God on Thursday, January 6, 2000 - 05:04 pm:
ok, i won't bother.
This thread is over anyway.
one more thing, Miguel, your tone in your post is just as bad as us anti-evangelists'. <!-/Post: 4207-!><!-Post: 4227-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Friday, January 7, 2000 - 04:29 am:
Why is this thread over? <!-/Post: 4227-!><!-Post: 4238-!>
By Col. Sam Troutman on Friday, January 7, 2000 - 10:08 am:
It's over Johnny...It's over!! <!-/Post: 4238-!><!-Post: 4239-!>
By David C. on Friday, January 7, 2000 - 10:10 am:
In the old days (the former white board) this kind of thread would have died long ago. Maybe it's this newer kind of format but it's nice to see that you keep things going.
So let's all just praise the Lord! Gosh it can't hurt!!!
p.s. Johnny, sorry I stopped writing back.Very lazy... Hope you are well. David C. <!-/Post: 4239-!><!-Post: 4242-!>
By AKBAR on Friday, January 7, 2000 - 12:00 pm:
It hurts Allah to praise the lord.
It's over because we've beaten this thing into the ground. There's too many deep feelings concerning religion, and we've tried desparately to keep it on the subject of Brian. Furthermore, your past tones give us the illusion(i hope it is) that you feel you are superior to us because you found Jesus. I love Brian Wilson, and his music means the world to me and i've found peace with him (so to speak).
But darnit, I get very frustrated when I get bombarded with "praise the lord! praise the lord!" give us a break....please. <!-/Post: 4242-!><!-Post: 4263-!>
ByJohn W. Proctor on Saturday, January 8, 2000 - 01:38 am:
You left me hanging a couple months ago! We were getting into some deep subjects. You were a real blessing to me. No guilt, just letting you know I was getting something out of it. I've been writing a lot of songs lately. I think I am entering my own personal Pet Sounds period!
To the thread-enders:
Bye bye! <!-/Post: 4263-!><!-Post: 4283-!>
By Gary L. on Saturday, January 8, 2000 - 06:11 pm:
David & John,I and several other posters on this thread have no problems praising the Lord without being told countless times to do so.So please give it a rest! <!-/Post: 4283-!><!-Post: 4390-!>
By will brumfield on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 02:26 am:
John, I wanted to respond to your original question without sticking my face into the bees nest this thread has become. I don't like to discuss spirituality and want no part in any religious dialogues. Let's pretend I didn't even see the other responses, I just want to answer your question : There have been 3 things in my life that have finally convinced me of "God's" existence. At 34 years old I have finally been able to stop questioning God and to accept my faith as fact. The first is the love I have always known from my parents and family. The second is the dicovery of my wife and my devotion to her. The third is Brian Wilson's music. Some people say that the Bible is God's word. I say "Our Prayer" is and please note that there are no lyrics! Brian sang in my ear and God picked me up into his hands. <!-/Post: 4390-!><!-Post: 4413-!>
By NorCalSurfer on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 09:06 pm:
Please let this thread go the way of the Buffalo.
The evangelical tone of the thread is, at best, tiresome. A sheep in wools clothing so to speak. I realize that this comment will likely provoke a vigorous response from the theologens in the audience. Don't bother. Let it go! A passing comment regarding spiritual references contained in Brians' music would be one thing, but this has turned into a vehicle for the promotion of a specific agenda. <!-/Post: 4413-!><!-End-!>
ByJohn Proctor on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 06:33 am:
For every person here begging for us to stop with our "agenda" and our evil religious ideas, there are 3 who have asked that this thread NOT die. My question has been all along, if you don't like it, why log on to this thread at all? What does it do for you just to stop others from meaningful communication just because YOU don't dig it? Just go to another thread, for heaven's sake! Oops! I mentioned "heaven!" I'm crusading again! People are still responding both on the BB and to my e-mail. If the BB Admin drops it, that's it. Until then, why trouble yourself? I have (openly) identified my beliefs (why do you accuse us of being wolves in sheep's clothing- a Christian expression BTW) and not gone to other threads to declare them, as you have with yours.
By NorCalSurfer on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 06:58 am:
Hey John; I dont think religion is evil. Far from it. And I agree that those of us who are not interested in the thread should simply pass it by, just like any other thread that doesn't tickle our fancy. Maybe I was just bored and wanted to stir up a little dust. Thankfully, you didn't let me down. Regardless, while I will no longer take the time to read the excessively long (for the most part) opinions of you and others featured at this pew, I will not argue against your right to express them!