Al and Dental school research
By AGD (Agd) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 10:45 pm:
Well, it's all getting very interesting. I asked Gary Winfrey if he could be more specific about the date of Alan's returning to California from Ferris U.... and the answer that came back astonished me, as it runs completely counter to perceived Beach Boys history. And there's documentary proof. I'll let Gary tell the story in his own words:
"All this BB history has been a lot of fun for me and has brought back memories that I had forgotten for over forty years.
During the past several days I have been e-mailing and phoning my brother Don about his memories. One of the things that we talked about was when I loaned Al $105.00 dollars. (A hundred 1962 dollars is worth almost a thousand 2002 dollars.) Don scanned and e-mailed the note to me.
Here's the story. I was living at my parent's house in Hawthorne, CA and the date was Monday Aug 16 1962 (my emphasis - AGD) at about 12:00 pm and we was awakened (Don and I shared a bedroom) by a rapping on our bedroom window. It was Al Jardine and Dennis Wilson. Al wanted to borrow some money (I think he wanted to buy a car, but I am not positive on this point). He said he would pay me back on Friday when he received his paycheck. I was willing to slide the money out the window and go back to sleep. However during all the commotion we woke my parents and my Dad came in to see what was happening. My Dad said not to give him the money without a promissory note. He suggested that they come back tomorrow and we would make it legal. The next morning Al and Dennis came back and I typed a promissory note, Al signed and Dennis witnessed it. Al got the money and paid it back on Friday as promised.
My brother Don has saved this note for forty years and I'm glad he did. Andrew, the attached note is proof positive that Al was back in California in August of 1962. He definitely was back earlier than the dated document as he already got a job."
Here's the text of the note:
Promisary Note 8/17/62
On this seventeenth day of August, I promise to pay Gary Winfrey the sum of $105 to be paid on the day of the twentieth of August.
Signed (Alan Jardine)
Witness (Dennis Wilson)
So, as Gary says, Alan was back in California by mid-August 1962, working in some kind of salaried job and obviously hanging out with the Wilsons but not back in the Beach Boys. The inference is that he only spent a few months at Ferris (maybe April-June) before returning to California, then spent almost a year before rejoining to the band doing... what ?
It also clears up a nagging problem I've always had with his return - a local call to a friend you've been hanging out with for several months makes a lot more sense than a long-distance call to someone you've not seen for over a year.
Sometime later today I'll put the note up on a web page. Damn, I love this band !
By Brad on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 03:16 am:
Further support for Al being around in the summer of 1962 comes from Gary Usher, who recounted (in Stephen McParland's "The Wilson Project") a confrontation with Al in the mid-1980s over an investment that Al made in Gary's and Brian's Rachel & The Revolvers project. The tracks for that record were made Aug. 31, 1962.
However, since semesters at American colleges usually begin in September and January, I would assume that while Al quit the BBs circa April 1962, he probably didn't start attending Ferris University until the following September (at the start of the Fall semester), then came back to California early in 1963 (rather than enrolling in the Spring semster).
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 03:26 am:
That would be very early 1963, Brad, since Gary remembers him bringing back a demo of "Surfin' USA" to the place they shared, and the earliest "SUSA" session was January 5th, I think (unless, of course, that was the demo session 
).
Then again, he could have been buying the car to drive to Ferris.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 07:55 am:
In "Our Favourite Recording Sessions," Stephen McParland refers to a 1995 interview by Chuck Harter and Alan Boyd with Virginia Jardine (Al's mom) that appeared in the December 1995 issue of "Endless Summer Quarterly."
VIRGINIA: "He didn't leave the group for that reason (to attend dental school). He didn't. No, no. Uh-uh. He didn't go to dental school. We moved. We moved to Big Rapids, Michigan. That's how he got removed from the group. We left the city. We wanted Al to come with us. He didn't want to leave. He was happy where he was. He decided to stay there (California) and use the (football) scholarship at Pepperdine, but I don't know... he hitchhiked across, hitchhiked to join us in Big Rapids. Really, that's how he got there. He joined us and went to college in Big Rapids. And he made As and Bs, made the Dean's (list)." (end of reference)
So Alan WAS at Ferris State at some point, and it either had to be the Fall Semester 1962 and/or the Spring Semester 1963. Ferris State's upcoming Fall semester begins on August 26th, and the Spring semester on January 13th. Of course, they may have been on a "quarter" schedule back then, which would have meant a much later starting date (late September). But if Al hitchhiked from California to Michigan (2000+ miles), it must have been without his parents knowledge (or they certainly would have wired him money for the bus, right?), and was probably a rather sudden and impulsive decision.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:18 am:
I know this is gonna sound goofy, but why not just ask AL for confirmation on this stuff? He MUST remember all the details, right? Maybe not the exact dates, but he must be able to come up with at least some kinda chronology that comes within plus or minus a month or two of what he did from 1961 - 1963. Does he not remember when he left and came back to the group?
Thanks AGD, Brad, Stephen, and Phlip for the great info anyway. ........But has anybody ever asked Al himself?
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:24 am:
Note that prior to early 1970s, US colleges started fall semester about the third week of Sept, had an Xmas break, returned pretty much for finals right after Jan 1, broke in mid January for a Semester break and concluded spring semester in late May. Oklahoma and Oklahoma State switched to week berore labor day starting the cycle in fall of 1970, but when I went off to Oklahoma in 1970 several friends who got accepted at legitimately academic colleges didn't start until three weeks after that. I think by our sophomore years, even they were switched over to the earlier system, which was typified in my extended family by a cousin always having to study intensively while visiting for Christmas.
Why do both Al stories cited involve borrowed money?
By Paul_dash (Paul_dash) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:28 am:
This is all very interesting... Especially the stuff from Al"s mom...Please continue...
By Brad on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:46 am:
Proof that great minds think alike:
I thought the logical way to nail down this issue about when Alan attended Ferris State was to contact the school and ask them. I just got off the phone with the Registrar there and (surprise!) they were already looking up the information because somebody (Andrew? Steve?) e-mailed them to ask the same question!
Anyway, here's the information:
Alan Charles Jardine of Torrance, CA, attended Ferris State University from Sept. 16, 1960 to June 11, 1961 as a Freshman. He was a full-time student that year and did complete the school year.
Now what does that do to our chronology?!!
Brad
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:51 am:
It throws it out the window and makes me wonder if there is other evidence that 1962 occurred before 1961.
it would certainly explain the Singing Nun.
By Brad on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:54 am:
Follow-up thoughts and questions:
(1) Alan obviously didn't go to Michigan and attend Ferris State after leaving The Beach Boys in the spring of 1962, so where did he go? And why did he leave The Beach Boys?
(2) If Alan was attending Ferris State through the first half of 1961, that means he couldn't have reconnected with Brian on the campus of El Camino College until, at the earliest, late June of 1961. Which means The Beach Boys probably came together in the summer of 1961 much faster than we've thought.
Brad
By Mikie (Mikie) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:05 am:
So much for the Dental school theory all these years, huh? Did he ever go to Dental school at all? And if he came back to L.A. the Summer of 1961, did he get back in the band immediately or wait awhile? Dave Marks says Al AND he played gigs together, but you never see them in any film together from the early 60's. First time I saw a picture of them together was on the "Surfer Girl" sheet music from 1963. And why did Al say once during an interview that he came back and Brian had written all these great songs? Was he referring to Surfin' and the early version of Surfer Girl? Were the Morgan sessions before or after Al came back? If Al got out of school in mid '61 and didn't get his picture on an album cover until late 1963, where was he? Not at school, obviously.....
And Al was involved with "What Is A Young Girl Made Of", right? That was released on the Kenny & The Cadets single in 1962.....when was that recorded again, '61 or '62?
Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious - I don't have AGD's timeline in front of me at the moment - maybe I'm just a little confused at Brad's "New" revelation here.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:09 am:
Sorry Brad - I was addressing your first post above before you followed up. Looks like you're kinda looking for the same answers to this gap in time as I am.
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:52 am:
I thought it had already been pretty well established that "dental school" is a myth, and that at the point that Al left school he was still listed as a general studies major or possibly a pharmacy major.
Dental school is, of course, only a goal at the point of being an undergraduate.
By the way, I attribute the dental school myth to the published mistakes about Al's age during the 1970s. A writer at Circus -- and I really think we might be talking about Steve Gaines -- listed Al as being 35 in an article about the then-new Sunflower. It is easy to imagine someone believing the dental school story and supposing that Al was therefore at least four years older than Mike and Brian.
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 03:30 pm:
Hey Brad - I just got home... and Ferris must be wondering why all the interest in one A. C. Jardine. Their alumni dept. emailed me the same dates:
"In checking our records I find that there was an Alan Charles Jardine that attended our university as a full-time freshman student for one academic year. He started here on 09-16-60 and last attended 06-11-61."
The plot thickens... time to ask Gary a few more questions, I think. Asking Alan might not be such a good idea..."um Al, care to explain how the facts don't square with what you've been saying for years ?". Maybe not.
Mikie sez "Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious - I don't have AGD's timeline in front of me at the moment - maybe I'm just a little confused at Brad's "New" revelation here."
Don't worry bud, the early part of my timeline just went into meltdown. Squaring the circle will be a cinch compared to trying to hammer this little lot into a coherent sequence... but damn, isn't this fun ?!
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 04:07 pm:
OK, new sequence of events:
1957 - Alan meets Brian, forms Islanders
1960 - 9/16, Alan attends Ferris
1961 - winter, Alan, Gary & Lent approach Morgan, evidently during Alan's winter break
1961 - 6/11, Alan leaves Ferris, then returns to California, enrols at El Camino Community College, meets Brian again, re-auditions for the Morgans twice and helps form the Beach Boys in seconds flat
1962 - Feb, Alan leaves the band, but does not go to university, at least in Michigan
1963 - June/July, Alan rejoins the band - officially.
Big gap between 2/62 and 6/63, right ? Right. Any bright ideas ? Nope, me neither, except that we know he was in California and working in August 1962. OK, time for some more emails. But first...
I'm going to bed. Godnight all.
By Incognito (Incognito) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 04:54 pm:
Is El Camino College still around? Anyone contact
them? I remember an article in Esquire magazine
years ago (60s or 70s), made up of college
photographs of rock stars, and there were pictures
of both Brian and Al with El Camino College under
their names. Don't remember if it included the
dates. Anyone else remember this?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:33 pm:
What Alan said (quotes from Gaines and White books, recapped by McParland in "Our Favourite Recording Sessions"):
ALAN: "I made the decision I didn't really want to put a big investment into the group, and, at the same time, I wanted to finish dental school... I had to make a decision to sign with Capitol Records and drop my professional ideals, or stay in school. I decided to stay in school... At that time we were doing a lot of Chubby Checker tunes. They were cute, you know, but I didn't enjoy singing them that much... Then Brian sneaks in all these great songs after I decide to leave the group." (End of reference)
So what could have happened that would jibe with Alan's own recollections of that period? (The only real conflict is that now we know Al didn't leave the group to pursue "dental studies" at FERRIS STATE).
A working hypothesis:
1. Alan attends Ferris State for his freshman year (09-16-60 to 06-11-61). He gets As and Bs and makes the Dean's List.
2. The Jardines move back to California sometime in 1961, and Alan attends El Camino CC for one semester (Fall 1961). Perhaps he runs into Brian sometime in June 1961 while enrolling for the Fall Semester.
3. Alan transfers to some other as-yet-unknown local senior college in January 1962, and is enrolled in some kind of "pre-dental" program.
4. Alan quits the Beach Boys sometime soon after the Hite Morgan "union" (AFM) sessions (February 8, 1962) at World Pacific ("Surfin' Safari," Surfer Girl," "Judy," and "Karate") to concentrate on his studies. Unlike Brian and Dennis, Alan had chosen NOT to join the musicians union prior to this session.
5. Alan performs bvs for "Barbee" (Kenny & the Cadets) on March 8, 1962 (as a favor to Hite Morgan) AFTER he has officially left the Beach Boys.
6. When the time comes to sign with Capitol Records (April/May 1962), Alan believes (or is led to believe) that he has one last opportunity to rejoin the Beach Boys as the 5th (or 6th?) member. (Maybe Brian does not want to tour?)... He declines.
7. In August 1962, Alan loans Brian Wilson and Gary Usher $800 (his entire life savings) so that Brian and Gary can produce two Rachel & the Revolvers tracks. Brian and Gary never pay him back, and Alan still remembers (and is still angry) 24 years later when he meets up with Gary Usher at the "Spirit of Rock and Roll" vocal sessions in December 1986.
8. Not in the group, but still party to its activities, Alan obtains a demo of "Surfin' USA" in January 1963, and plays it for Gary Winfrey.
9. As a "summer job" in 1963, Alan returns to the Beach Boys as Brian's "road" replacement. At the end of the summer, David Marks (technically) leaves the group, and Alan agrees to stay on as the "5th Beach Boy."
As AGD points out, the main question would have to do with the very genesis of the Beach Boys... Summer 1961... So many events, it all must have happened VERY quickly. Much faster than previously thought.
By Brad on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:45 pm:
AGD wrote:
> OK, new sequence of events:
>
> 1957 - Alan meets Brian, forms Islanders
> 1960 - 9/16, Alan attends Ferris
> 1961 - winter, Alan, Gary & Lent approach Morgan, evidently during Alan's winter
> break
> 1961 - 6/11, Alan leaves Ferris, then returns to California, enrols at El Camino
> Community College, meets Brian again, re-auditions for the Morgans twice and
> helps form the Beach Boys in seconds flat
The only part of that I might really disagree with is Alan and Gary Winfrey approaching Hite Morgan over Alan's winter break from Ferris State University. If Virginia Jardine's memory is correct, the Jardines were in Michigan during the time that Alan was at Ferris State, so there'd be no reason for Alan to end up in California over his winter break. He most likely would have spent it with his family in Michigan. Also, why would Alan have been trying to get something going with a music career in California over winter break when he was going back to college in Michigan the next month?
Then there's the fact that Brian and Alan both have reported that when they bumped into each other on the El Camino campus (which we now date to about June 1961), it had been quite some time since they'd seen each other. So it simply doesn't fit that Gary and Alan would have been "over at Brian's house" in December 1960 or January 1961 for Audrey to give them "the idea to contact Hite Morgan." That was only 5 or 6 months earlier. I think a much longer amount of time had to have passed between that visit and Brian and Alan getting reacquainted at El Camino.
Now, follow me ...
Based on what Gary Winfrey told Andrew, I think it's a logical assumption that Bob Barrow was a little older than Alan and Gary. Gary indicated that Bob had to leave the group because he went to college in the fall of 1960, leaving Alan and Gary behind. However, we now know that Alan went to college in the fall of 1960. So when was it that Bob went to college and left the group? It had to be earlier, so I think we're probably talking about the fall of 1959, rather than a year later.
Working from that conclusion, can we then assume that it was the winter of 1960 (not 1961) when Gary and Alan were told by Audrey to go see Morgan? That would make sense if indeed it had been a substantial amount of time since Brian and Alan had seen each other when they ran into each other at El Camino. This scenario makes it a year-and-half, rather than just 5 or 6 months.
So then where are we? Well, it becomes Summer 1960 when Hite Morgan calls Gary & Alan and they come to his studio with Keith Lent. This also makes a lot more sense than supposing that Gary & Alan would leave their first meeting with Morgan with the understanding that Hite would call if "anything comes up" and Alan then immediately heading back to Michigan. What would Alan have done if Hite had called? Skipped classes to come back to California? No, I think it's far more likely that Gary & Alan would have left things with Hite that way only if they were going to be around for a while.
In any event, nothing comes of that session with Morgan, the Jardines move to Michigan, and Alan enrolls at Ferris State in the fall of 1960. Alan's away until June of 1961, when he becomes reacquainted with Brian, and it's at that time that Brian first becomes musically involved with Alan. After an apparent abortive attempt to work with The Islanders, Brian brings Alan into the Wilson family music-making and they go see Hite.
So here's how I would lay it out in chronological outline form:
1957 - Alan meets Brian, forms Islanders
1959 - fall, Bob Barrow goes off to college and leave the Islanders
1960 - early, Alan & Gary approach Hite Morgan
1960 - summer, Morgan calls Alan & Gary back and auditions Alan, Gary & Keith Lent on "Rio Grande"
1960 - 9/16, Alan enters Ferris State University
1961 - 6/11, Alan leaves Ferris, then returns to California, enrols at El Camino Community College, meets Brian again and enlists his help briefly with The Islanders, re-auditions for the Morgans twice and helps form the Beach Boys
Whaddya think?
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 11:36 pm:
Brad, and everyone else mixed up in this mess (!), forget what I think and harken ye to someone who was there at the time. Just had a quick word with Gary Winfrey, and he totally refutes the dates Ferris gave us. He think that they were looking at Alan's dates at El Camino College:
"Alan graduated High School in Jun 1960 and attented El Camino College from Sept 1960 to June 1961. I know this to be true as I also attended El Camino at the same time. Could Ferris have been reading his transcripts from El Camino? In the US when you change Schools you have to send your records (or transcripts) to the new school."
Looks eminently plausible to me...
Gary's mom recalls Alan staying with them when his folks moved back to Michigan in the summer of 1961, and Gary states that he & Alan moved into an apartment in January 1963. OK, back to the drawing board...
By STE (Ste) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 11:39 pm:
>Big gap between 2/62 and 6/63, right ? Right. >Any bright ideas ?
Isn't when he was waiting for the bus? Ahah..ok.
Seriously, Brad timeline sounds very credible.
I do think, though, someone should ask Alan, once we're conviced of our timeline.
AGD should maybe also check if Bob Barrow was really older than Alan and Gary.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:03 am:
Andrew,
The clerk I talked to in the Registrar's office at Ferris had to pull Alan's records from microfilm. I asked her specifically if the records showed any information about other colleges that Alan might have attended either prior to or immediately after Ferris. I was hoping there'd be a notation as to when he transferred to or from El Camino and possibly Pepperdine (where his mom says he had a scholarship). The clerk said that they had no records indicating ANYTHING concerning any other college, only his data from Ferris.
I guess the next step is trying to find out from El Camino what their records might show. I'll give them a call in the morning and see what they say. Once I have that information, if it conflicts with what Ferris told me, I'll call the woman back and see if I can get things cleared up.
Brad
P.S. -- I also asked the clerk at Ferris about whether Alan's grades were shown in his records and she indicated they were. However, when I asked if she could tell me what they were, she said there are some things they can only release to the student himself. 
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 02:20 am:
Sooo... you don't believe he got As & Bs and made Dean's list ? :-O. That's what I call a healthily skeptical attitude. All great researchers have 'em.
Thinking out loud - isn't it a little strange that there's no record of the grades he would presumably (I'm no expert on the US educational system) have had to submit to get into Ferris ? Or where he transferred from ? Or am I reading too much into this ?
I checked out the El Camino website a few weeks ago - would you believe no email address ? Or if there is , I can't find it.
The big problem here is that Gary and his family absolutely remember the dates given above. I guess if El Camino has records, we'll have to go with what they say.
Hmmm... just had another thought.
By Textus (Textus) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 06:51 am:
This was the era of manual typewriters, and I seem to remember that 1 and 2 were next to each other back then as well as now. (Oops, now I remember that there often weren't 1 keys and that you had to remember to type an l instead. But still.... )Is it possible we're simply talking about a typo? Any Michiganders here who could go look for Al in a yearbook in a library or something?
I have to tell you, with great respect to all involved in telling this story, much of what I thought I knew 10 years ago I know know isn't so, and much of what I knew then contradicted what I knew 20 and 30 years ago.
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:19 am:
Knew there was a problem with Brad's new sequence, and I've finally figured it out. It's here:
"1959 - fall, Bob Barrow goes off to college and leave the Islanders"
The problem is, the photo of the three of them wasn't merely assumed to be July 1960, it's actually dated July 1960 - what you see on the web page is a cropped & enlarged version. On the original scan as sent to me, it's square, and down the right hand side is printed JUL.60 - it looks like an early Polaroid. That ties in with Gary's recollection of Bob leaving in fall 1960.
And still leaves us up in the air. More thought required.
Any news from El Camino ?
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:04 pm:
OK, checked it out - the date was put on the photo by the developing lab, so it's accurate. The camera was a Kodak, BTW.
By Susan on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:08 pm:
I am so engrossed in this! I think this is very cool what you guys are doing. I'd do something, but my resources are limited, and I'm not up to making long distance phone calls and researching that kind of stuff, when I have my own school work and such to deal with.
Keep it up!
By Sopalin (Sopalin) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:45 pm:
Just elbowing in here to say what entertaining stuff this is. Part of me says it shouldn't be, but I'm not listening to that. I love this board. Such harmless craziness and good spirit.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:50 pm:
Andrew, yeah, there's news from El Camino, but it's not good. State law is different in California than it is in Michigan, and the Records department at El Camino cannot give out information to the general public on when students attended the school!
But there might yet be some information coming from the school. A librarian at El Camino has pulled the school's yearbooks for the years 1960, 1961 and 1962 (the 1963 book is missing) and is going to page through them (they have no indices!) in her spare time over the next couple of days. I'm supposed to call her back on Friday to see what she's found.
On the other hand, I again talked with the Registrar's Office at Ferris State and I am more convinced than ever that Alan attended there during the 1960-61 school year. Why am I so convinced? Because his father, Donald C. Jardine, was on the faculty at the school that year -- and no other year!
Donald Jardine was an instructor in Visual Reproductions at Ferris Institute (as the school was then known) for the 1960-61 school year. That explains not only why Alan was enrolled there that year, but also why his family moved to Michigan!
Donald Jardine's bio in the 1960-61 Catalog reads:
"B.A. University of Toledo; three years teaching experience at Rochester Institute of Technology; 17 years' experience in the field."
In regard to Alan's college record there, the clerk had a printout from the microfilmed records in front of her while talking to me today and was able to add a lot of additional details that further support that Alan was enrolled there in 1960-61. She confirmed for me that he was a Freshman when he attended Ferris and added that his application was received in June 1960, showing that he'd just graduated from Hawthorne High. His address when he applied was on El Segundo Boulevard in Hawthorne, but while he was enrolled, it was changed to Linden Street in Big Rapids, Michigan (where Ferris State is located). The final address they have for him, immediately post-dating his Freshman year, is on Yukon Street in Torrance, California. Not coincidentally, I think, the Yukon Street address is the one that's shown for him on the AFM contract for the February 1962 Hite Morgan session.
I think there's NO chance that a transcript from El Camino accidentally replaced the record of his year at Ferris State. The clerk explained to me that in the early 1960s, at the end of each quarter, the class record and grades for a student were typed onto a pre-printed sticker and then pasted on the student's "Permanent Record" card -- i.e., the student's class record and grades for the entire year were NOT entered at one time. The microfilmed record she was looking at was a copy of Alan's Permanent Record card, and she said it was very clear that three such stickers -- one for each quarter he attended -- had been pasted on the card. (FYI, the three quarters Alan attended ran Sept. 11 to Dec. 3, 1960; Dec. 5, 1960 to March 11, 1961; and March 13, 1960 to June 11, 1961. Christmas recess began Dec. 17, 1960, with classes resuming Jan. 3, 1961.)
So, while I don't want to cast doubt on the accuracy of Gary's recollection, I very much doubt that both Alan's Permanent Record card (with separate stickers for each quarter) and the 1960-61 Ferris Institute catalog are wrong about when the Jardines were in Michigan. But just to be sure, I've asked Ferris' Human Resources Department to dig back into their non-microfilmed employement records for the era and provide me with Donald Jardine's dates of employment there. They're supposed to have that information ready for me on Friday.
Brad
P.S. - More about Donald Jardine and Ferris Institute: Mr. Jardine was a noted photographer for the Lima Locomotive Works in the 1950s. Looking at the course descriptions in the 1960-61 Ferris catalog, I would guess that he taught such classes at Ferris as "Introduction to Photography" (VR-143), "Photocopy and Darkroom Techniques" (VR-163), "Microfilm and Advanced Darkroom Techniques" (VR-261), "Photographic Theory - Cameras and Platemaking" (VR-271), and "Photography for Reproduction Purposes" (VR-272). [The course descriptions do not include the name of the instructor.]
Ferris offered a 2-year "Visual Reproduction Technician" program. According to the catalog, Ferris' program was "the first training program organized in a college to prepare technicians for the Visual Communications industry."
[FYI, all of Ferris' catalogs from throughout the school's history can be viewed online at the Registrar's webpage!]
P.P.S. -- I've also inquired of the Rochester Institute of Technology as to when Mr. Jardine worked there and should hear something back from them on Thursday.
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 02:43 pm:
What happens when you get two people beavering away at the same problem from different ends ? Eventually they meet in the middle and come to an accord. Gary's been checking with his family and this is his revised sequence of events:
6/60 - Al graduates from Hawthorne High
8/60 - Al's parents move to MI, Alan moves in with the Winfreys
9/60 - Al attends Ferris
6/61 - Al returns to CA, probably post 6/14
9/61 - Al enrols at El Camino*, "Surfin'" recorded
2/62 - Al leaves the BB
6/62 - Al leaves El Camino (on promise of Pepperdine football scholarship ?)
1/63 - Al moves in with Gary in Gardena CA
2/63 - Al & Gary move to Hermosa Beach (the 'demo' of "Surfin' USA" that Al brought home would appear to be an advance copy)
6/63 - Al rejoins the band
The problem with accepted BB history occurs at * - if Al & Brian rekindled their relationship at El Camino, then the story about the Labor Day weekend rehersals, and any previous contact with the Morgans, is in doubt. I prefer to think that the story of Alan & Brian running into each other at El Camino is just that - a story, on a par with Alan leaving the band to go to Michigan to pursue a dentistry course, something that Brad & I have discovered to be demonstrably false. It also looks like the 1/61 Islanders audition with the Morgans is indeed misdated by a year, for the very excellent reasons Brad stated, i.e. that Alan's parents were with him in Michigan.
Brad, any chance Bruce Morgan would remember when his parents set up their home studio ? That would answer quite a lot. In the meantime, I've got a timeline and Islanders article to revise...
But I still love this band.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 02:51 pm:
I LOVE to beaver away. Why just the other night I.....
Nah, better not.
Good thread boys. Maybe we'll see the results of this thorough investigation in Brad's next book. On the page with the credits and thank you's, AGD's name should be printed in uppercase bold italics for emphasis.....
By Susan on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:18 pm:
Rip snortin' good research fellas.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:28 pm:
Andrew,
I like that chronology a lot better than what you were proposing before!
** The problem with accepted BB history occurs at * - if Al & Brian rekindled their relationship at El Camino, then the story about the Labor Day weekend rehersals, and any previous contact with the Morgans, is in doubt. I prefer to think that the story of Alan & Brian running into each other at El Camino is just that - a story **
Not necessarily. I expect that El Camino probably had a short summer semester, and my guess would be that Alan and Brian met during it. Even though they won't give me any information on when Alan attended, maybe I can find out semester dates in 1961. I'll see what I can do.
One of the reasons I think it's not just a story is this quote from Alan that was included in the 1974 BBC documentary, "The Beach Boys Story" [emphasis mine]:
"Brian and I were in rival singing groups in Hawthorne High School, in Hawthorne, California, in 1959. I always admired what he did. You know, I knew there was something happening there with his arrangements and the way he just, you know, the way he carried himself. AFTER WE LEFT HIGH SCHOOL, I WENT OFF TO COLLEGE IN THE EAST, and I couldn't find anybody that I was really happy with -- just to get together with, to sing and to harmonize, and to make music. So I just hunted Brian down. I bumped into him at El Camino College. IN MY SECOND YEAR OF COLLEGE, I CAME BACK WEST. MY FATHER WAS TEACHING AT THIS OTHER PLACE. WE CAME BACK TO CALIFORNIA TO PURSUE ANOTHER LINE OF WORK, AND I ENDED UP BACK IN LOS ANGELES, WENT TO EL CAMINO, and I was walking across the campus and, boom, there was Brian."
It's just too perfect a fit for the facts as we now know them!
** It also looks like the 1/61 Islanders audition with the Morgans is indeed misdated by a year, for the very excellent reasons Brad stated, i.e. that Alan's parents were with him in Michigan. **
I have some real doubts, though, about a 1960 date for that audition session. Since it was done without Bob Barrow, it must have taken place post-July 1960 (because of the dating on the photo). Maybe Bob left mid-summer and there were a couple of months where Alan and Gary worked without him, and it was during that time that they went to the Wilsons and were directed to Hite Morgan. However, that just doesn't sit right with me. Why, just weeks before he's moving to Michigan and going off to college, would Alan be trying to pursue something in the music industry? Also, as far as I know, there's never been anybody quoted to the effect that Alan had met Murry and Audrey before he bumped into Brian at El Camino. In fact, in that same BBC documentary, Alan said:
"Up to that point [where he'd bumped into Brian on the El Camino campus], I had seen Brian, I think, a year previous in a hamburger stand, if you can believe that. And I said -- I dropped the word then -- I said, 'Let's get together, Brian, I'm going back east for a year.' So he said, 'Fine, I'll see you later,' you know. So this was later."
I just don't see how that kind of recollection jibes with Alan & Gary inquring of Audrey in mid 1960 (or anytime before bumping into Brian at El Camino) about who to see in the music business.
Rather, at this time, I have to think that the entire series of events involving Brian, Audrey, Murry and Hite Morgan transpired in a VERY short period of time in the summer of 1961.
This is how my proposed chronology looks like now:
1957 - Al meets Brian, forms The Islanders
6/60 - Al & Brian graduate from Hawthorne High
8/60 - Al's parents move to MI, Al moves in with the Winfreys
9/60 - Al hitchikes to MI and attends Ferris, Bob Barrow goes off to college, The Islanders disband
6/61 - Al returns to CA, revives The Islanders (with Gary & Don), enrolls at El Camino College and meets Brian again
Summer 1961 - Alan & Gary ask Audrey about a contact in the music industry, approach Hite Morgan and are called back weeks (not months) later to audition "Rio Grande" (with Keith Lent)
9/61 - Alan (with the Wilson brothers and Mike Love) re-auditions for the Morgans twice and helps form the Beach Boys, "Surfin'" demo recorded
10/61 - studio recording of "Surfin'"
2/62 - Al leaves the BB
6/62 - Al leaves El Camino (on promise of Pepperdine football scholarship?) ***
1/63 - Al moves in with Gary in Gardena CA
2/63 - Al & Gary move to Hermosa Beach (the 'demo' of "Surfin' USA" that Al brought home would appear to be an advance copy)
6/63 - Al rejoins the band
The only item with which I have a problem (***) is the assumption that Alan left El Camino in June 1962, possibly because of a Pepperdine football scholarship. In her ESQ interview with Alan Boyd and Chuck Harter six years ago, Virginia Jardine placed the Pepperdine scholarship opportunity as occurring before Alan's enrollment at Ferris. Specifically, she said:
"We moved to Big Rapids, Michigan. [...] We left the city. We wanted Al to come with us. He didn't want to leave, he was happy where he was. So he got this football scholarship at Pepperdine. He decided to stay there [This apparently would be when he was staying with the Winfreys. - BE] and use the scholarship. But I don't know ... he hitchiked across, hitchiked to join us in Big Rapids. [...] That's how he got there. He joined us and went to college in Big Rapids."
Which leaves unanswered the quesion of just WHAT Alan was doing from June 1962 to June 1963. That's why I really have to question whether he left school that June. It would make a lot more sense if he stayed in school another year, especially since (1) it appears that his decision to leave The Beach Boys was predicated upon him continuing his education, and (2) his rejoining The Beach Boys occurred at the end of a school year. What does Gary remember Alan doing when they were sharing an apartment in January and February 1963?
** Brad, any chance Bruce Morgan would remember when his parents set up their home studio ? That would answer quite a lot. **
Yeah, it would. Right now, though, with all the legal mess with The Beach Boys going on, getting Bruce to answer any questions outside of a deposition is close to an impossibility. Give me a couple of months, though, and I'll get you a definitive answer.
Brad
By Brad on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:54 pm:
I just got off the phone with the El Camino College records department, and there was indeed a Summer semester in 1961! It started June 21, 1961 and ran through August 2. I think that gives us the time frame for Brian and Alan meeting and becoming reacquainted.
FYI, the Fall semester at El Camino in those days typically began mid-September and concluded in late January (with about a month break in December). The Fall 1961 semester began on Sept. 11 and concluded on Jan. 26.
The Spring semester then started just a few days after the end of the Fall semester and ran through mid-June. The Spring 1962 semester began on Jan. 31 and concluded on June 15.
Assuming that the dates for the 1962-63 semesters were similar, that would fit perfectly with Alan rejoining The Beach Boys at the end of another school year. [No, I didn't ask the clerk at El Camino for the 1962-63 dates. I sensed I already was trying her patience just asking for the 1961-62 semester dates, and I didn't want to push the issue. If necessary, I'll call her back in a couple of days and inquire further, but first I want to see what Gary says Alan was doing in early 1963. Andrew?]
By Phlip (Phlip) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 04:40 pm:
Brad: Why would Al attend a junior college for TWO years (June 1961-June 1963) after he had already completed his Freshman year at Ferris Institute? Obviously, it could have been "part-time," but why?
If he quit the Beach Boys just to go to school part-time (at a time when the group wasn't really "touring"), then he must have had a "full-time" job that precluded him from doing anything else... a job he needed to finance a planned transfer to a much more expensive "specialty" school. (Attending El Camino CC would not have been much more expensive than attending high school). Or perhaps he had already transferred (either of which would be a plausible reason to quit the Beach Boys in February 1962), and was occupied 60 or 80 hours a week working and going to school.
Problem: Al says the $800 he loaned to Brian and Gary in August 1962 (for the Rachel & the Revolvers record) was his "life-savings". If Al was attending (or about to transfer to) a more expensive school than El Camino, how could he afford to loan ANYBODY $800? This might help explain why Al remained angry at Gary Usher for nearly 25 years. He LOANS (remember, this is NOT an investment) his entire savings ($800, intended to finance his education) to two friends who want to produce a record (boy, I'd like to hear a tape of the spiel Gary and Brian laid on Al!), who then... don't pay him back! So by January 1963, he can't afford to attend school anymore. (Unless he himself takes out a loan to pay for it).
Which is when he moves in with Gary Winfrey in Hermosa Beach, working full-time while now able to attend school (pre-dentistry program) only part-time (if at all). All the more reason to jump at a chance to rejoin the Beach Boys in June!
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 05:27 pm:
Some quotes of interest:
Goldmine 2000
"Just before the Summer of '63 Brian called and begged me to come back into the band. By then I was kind of fed up with school, and Brian was feeling pressure from Murry to tour to support the album. HE SENT ME A DUB OF THE NEW SINGLE "SURFIN' USA" BACKED WITH "SHUT DOWN" TO HELP ME PREPARE FOR THE TOUR. I had already worked on "Surfin' USA" in it's inception so I knew that quite well, but I had to learn "Shut Down." Al Jardine
"Standing outside of a bowling alley in Hawthorne, CA singing folk songs. Singing one in particular that I still like. I swear to God every time I see a mandolin like the one you showed me at your house, he just loved when I played guitar or anything. THIS WAS IN THE EARLY 60's. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AFTER I LEFT THE GROUP FOR A WHILE. WE'D STAY IN TOUCH AND I'd ALWAYS COME BY AND I'D SING ON A FEW SONGS ON THE EARLY STUFF AS WELL. I sang backgrounds on a lot of the very early things even though I wasn't on the album covers. There was one called "Lonely Sea" a beautiful plaintive song. A bunch of stuff like that. Dennis couldn't wait for me to get my guitar out or mandolin and start playing a folk song. Al Jardine
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 05:36 pm:
This is from an article that appeared in a Rochester, NY newspaper May 1979.
It probably surprised more than a few people when Alan Jardine told the audience he once lived in the Rochester area, and that, for him, last night's concert was a homecoming.
Backstage, before the performance, Jardine said he lived in Summerville "near the lake" when he was nine (in 1951). His father, he said, taught offset printing at the Rochester Institute of Technology.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 06:39 pm:
AGD: On your timeline, Brian Wilson is listed as attending El Camino CC for only ONE semester (and that was in 1960). I realize you're taking your info from other sources, but how was it that Alan Jardine was able to "track" Brian down at El Camino in the Summer of 1961, if Brian wasn't there at that time? And if Brian attended El Camino for only one semester (Fall 1960?) after graduating from Hawthorne High in June 1960, what was he doing January-August 1961? Somehow I just can't picture Brian working full-time. Sort of like the idea of Mozart pumping gas at the Chevron. It just don't fit.
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 07:59 pm:
A couple of other notes:
June 11, 1961 was a Sunday. Seems odd that they would end a semester on a Sunday.
According to most of the early BBs Bios when Brian and Al met at El Camino, they mention rehearsing in the nurses quarters because one of the singers sprained his knee in a football game.
By Susan on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:42 pm:
Wow. You guys are awesome.
What started this enquiry, anyway? Andrew's interview with Gary? I'm fascinated - great work, y'all!
By Brad on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:16 pm:
** June 11, 1961 was a Sunday. Seems odd that they would end a semester on a Sunday. **
The Academic Calendar in the 1960-61 Ferris Institute catalog shows the Spring Quarter running from March 13 to June 11, but the last actual events on it are final examinations June 5-8. So I don't know.
Maybe June 11 was when commencement exercises were held (they're not listed on the calendar). Or maybe it was something odd like the last day the dorms at the school were open to students, or maybe it was the date they used to close the books on the school year from a financial standpoint. Who knows?
Well, actually, I'm sure somebody at Ferris probably knowss, but I'm not going to bug them again for that. I think I already exhausted their patience with so many questions about something that's ancient history to them. They'd probably freak if I called back and asked them why their 1960-61 school year ended on a Sunday!
Brad
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:01 am:
"And I'd sing on a few songs on the early stuff as well. I sang backgrounds on a lot of the very early things even though I wasn't on the album covers."
I never knew that. Can any session sheets or other documentation substantiate that Al sung on some of the early songs in the studio, Brad? I know he did backgrounds when they were on the road, but didn't know he was on the records before the Christmas album in 1963.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:02 am:
Sung. I meant "sang". Geez.
By Textus (Textus) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:38 am:
In examining accounts of the Wilsons and Havens (do I have that name right?) going to Mexico for the weekend, I assume that Ian Whitcomb's memoir has been used. I've read it a couple of times, don't have it here in front of me, but find it interesting because his source is the Havens and not anyone else connected with Capitol or the BBs. At least as he represents it, which I know is a different matter.
Donald Jardine was a noted railroad photographer?????? I'm going to have to start a different thread on that one. See "From the POV of the spike"
By Paul_dash (Paul_dash) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:09 am:
Mikie... I believe Jardine has a songwriting credit on Surfer Girl lp...
By AGD (Agd) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:23 am:
"South Bay Surfer", for which there was a session on 7/16/63.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:59 am:
OK......... and Barbie, released by Kenny & The Cadets in '62. What else?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:18 am:
It is interesting that just as David Marks (through Carrie Marks) was initially doubted by many posters here (including myself) when he said he was present for Beach Boys activities (concerts and sessions) long after he had ostensibly "left" the band (usually presumed to be August 31, 1963), so too Alan Jardine was ignored for 28 YEARS after he stated in the BBC documentary (cited by Brad) that he was away at college the year BEFORE he got together with Brian and formed the Beach Boys!
Remember how David Marks (through Carrie Marks) enlightened us to the fact that there was an overlap of several months between the return of Al, and the (semi) departure of David?... that Al returned to replace Brian, NOT to replace David (as had been the accepted urban legend)... Well, the evidence was there the whole time (in the form of a picture of the Beach Boys--including both Alan and David TOGETHER--on the cover of the sheet music for "Surfer Girl").
Stephen Desper has provided new illumination into a lot of the events of 1967-1972, busting long-held mistaken beliefs with the light of truth.
And until about two days ago, the idea of Al Jardine being present for Beach Boys recording sessions during the 1962-63 school year seemed illogical and improbable, because it was assumed he had absolutely and totally left the group so that he could attend college (dental school) in Michigan. But in last year's "Goldmine" interview cited by Calsaga, Al stated it very clearly... He was there for various sessions during the 1962-63 school year. And he sang bvs on "The Lonely Sea" session (the one from April 19, 1962, the same one that produced "409" and "Surfin' Safari"), two months AFTER he supposedly left the group. Al has also said that he made the decision to leave the Beach Boys when it came time to sign the contract with Capitol Records. Not before. So maybe that's what happened.
How many other chapters of the "Beach Boys story" need to be revisited? Maybe the truth is there, staring us right in the face! I know if it wasn't for AGD and Brad, Carrie Marks and Stephen Desper, many of us (including myself) would still be living on the dark side of the moon.
By Brad on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:23 pm:
** he sang bvs on "The Lonely Sea" session (the one from April 19, 1962, the same one that produced "409" and "Surfin' Safari"), two months AFTER he supposedly left the group. **
Ummm ... probably not, at least not at THAT particular session.
"Lonely Sea" as cut on April 19, 1962 was a MONO recording, just like "Surfin' Safari" and "409." Listen closely to the released version of "LS" on SURFIN' USA -- it's stereo! The left channel is the instrumental track and Brian's lead vocal. The right channel has, besides bleedthrough from the left channel, only the backing vocals. That's a very odd mix! If the track had been cut on 3-track like the rest of the SURFIN' USA album, the lead vocal would surely have been mixed to the center. But what we're dealing with is a mono recording (the instrumental track and lead vocal heard in the left channel) made on April 19, 1962, plus a backing vocal overdub made at a later date.
Alan wasn't at the April 19 session and, unfortunately, we have no documentation for when the backing vocal overdub was recorded. Since "LS" didn't appear on the SURFIN' SAFARI album, the logical assumption is that the overdub post-dates the sessions for that album (i.e., after September 1962). My guess would be that the backing vocals were laid down in January or February 1963, in the midst of the documented sessions for the SURFIN' U.S.A. album. Which fits when you take into account Al's statement that he "had already worked on 'Surfin' USA' in its inception."
Surf's up!
Brad
By Carrie (Carrie) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:09 pm:
"Al has also said that he made the decision to leave...when it came time to sign the contract with Capitol Records. Not before. So maybe that's what happened."
Here's a question that doesn't quite "feel" right about that. Why would Al choose not to sign the Capitol contract (which would have given him decent front money as well as 20% of the artist's royalties along with the support of a major label promoting the album) because he'd rather not be in the music business and would rather do the safe thing and go back to school. But then a month later, risk his whole life savings on a project like Rachel and the Revolvers? It doesn't seem like something a guy on his way out of the music business and on his way to dental school would do?
Stranger things have happened but still, it doesn't seem "right". Am I missing something here?
By Textus (Textus) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:24 pm:
Could there have been an initial resentment of the way Murry took the group to Capitol and concern that it was going to become a Wilson family enterprise? Each of the three high school grads in the "original" group were all under the impression, it seems to me, that he had recruited the other two and the kid bros into a group. the group resembled the neo-Rivingtons group that Mike had in mind and the neo-Freshmen group that Brian had in mind. Did Al think, as Murry took the biz reins, that by god it wasn't the neo-Kingstons group that he had in mind?
By Cam Mott on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 08:40 pm:
Phlip,
I'll bet a donut that there is alot of Beach Boys "history" that is inaccurate and the real story has been staring us in the face the whole time but we thought we knew better.
Or maybe not.
Cam
By Brad on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:14 pm:
I've done a little further research trying to figure where Al was between June 1962 (when, presumably, he finished his sophomore year at El Camino College) and June 1963 (when he rejoined The Beach Boys).
I think what little evidence we have points to Al being enrolled in a third year of college somewhere. Notice that quote of his from Goldmine that Calsaga posted:
"Just before the Summer of '63 Brian called and begged me to come back into the band. By then I was kind of fed up with school."
That would seem to indicate that Al went on and did a third year of college somewhere while he was away from The Beach Boys. But the question is: At what college did he spend his third year?
Phlip made the point that it doesn't make a lot of sense for Al to have done a third year at El Camino, a two-year community college. For the most part, I agree with that, although I've known people who decided to totally change their course of study midway through their second year and stayed for a third year to complete the classes in the new field. I have no evidence one way or the other, but it's possible Al did something like that. Also, it's possible that not all of Al's credits transferred from Ferris Institute, so he might have had to take some classes in a third year at El Camino to complete an accredited sophomore year.
One thing I can say for sure is that he wasn't enrolled at Pepperdine University (in Malibu) for his third year of college. I talked to the Registrar's Office there today and they have no record of an Alan Charles Jardine ever attending school there -- not in 1962-63 or any year. So while Al may have been offered a football scholarship there at some point (as his mom says), he never took advantage of it and never attended the school. Of course, there are lots of colleges and universities in the L.A. area (where we know he was that year), so he could have been enrolled in some other school. Short of calling them all, though, I know of no way to determine which one.
So I'm tossing the ball back to Andrew. Have you had a chance yet, good sir, to ask Gary Winfrey what Al was doing job-wise or school-wise in early 1963, when the two of them were sharing an apartment?
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 11:48 pm:
I'm on the case, boss - have asked, still waiting on a reply... but here's something else to fill the gap. I got in touch with an accquaintance of Alan's during those years, who recalled speding the summer of 1962 "lifting weights with him in a friend's garage" - with bathroom breaks, presumably - and he recalls that Alan advanced two reasons for quitting the band. Firstly, that it cost them $100 for the "Surfin'/Luau" session and they didn't make their money back, so he figured there was "no money in being a Beach Boy"... and secondly, he hated the concerts, specifically being hassled by jealous boyfriends.
I'm sure you've all spotted the problem with reason #1 - it's been widely reported that when the first (only ?) royalty check for "Surfin'" came in, Murry pitched in with a few bucks of his own to round it up to $1000, or two hundred each (of course, it was also widely believed- until a few days ago - that Alan left the band to attend college in Michigan ). As for #2, between the release of "Surfin'" and Alan's departure in mid-February 1962, we know of precisely two concerts, the disastrous two-song slot in a Dick Dale intermission and the Richie Valens Memorial gig. How many more shows could the band have played during the remaining 40-odd days Alan was in the band ? Less than 40, in fact, allowing for rehersals, sessions and school. Frankly, it doesn't add up. BTW, the friend confirms that at El Camino at least, he was studying dentistry.
By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:52 am:
** BTW, the friend confirms that at El Camino at least, he was studying dentistry. **
Actually, he probably was studying "Pre-Dentistry." According to El Camino's website, that's one of the programs in which they offer an A.S. (Associate of Science) degree. Hey, I wonder if Al got an A.S. degree from there?
Brad
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 06:13 am:
Is Al in any of the regional versions of Who's Who? Also, it has always been assumed that dentistry meant to eventually pursue a DDS. Could he, in fact, have been pursueing being a hygenicist or technician career, which involves higher education but not at the same level?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:20 am:
The part of Gary Winfrey's recollection that seems to conflict with other memories of the principles is that six months (or so) transpired between The Islanders first visit to Melrose, and the second (when they were given Bruce Morgan's "Rio Grande")...
From Brian's autobiography "Wouldn't It Be Nice" (Todd Gold)...
"Standing on the edge of the El Camino athletic field, Al and I might have been two college freshmen, but our conversation was exactly as it had been during high school. Sports, cars, chicks, and my forte, music. He wanted to get together to play... We ended up walking into the nurse's room which doubled as the football team's training room, and there we collected a couple of pals, forming a crude group... But the bass singer was flat and the fullback, who had just sprained his knee... was flat on his back in bed..."
BRIAN: "Hey Al, why don't you come over to my house and I'll put us together with my cousin Mike and my brother Carl"
AL: "They sing?"
BRIAN: "Yeah, Mike sings good bass, and Carl can play the guitar and sing great."
(PHLIP's NOTE: Brian, Mike, and Maureen Love had been rehearsing songs together for a few months).
"Al looked puzzled. He didn't know Mike. But Carl had been only twelve the last time Al had seen him play guitar at a high school assembly..."
(PHLIP's NOTE: That would presumably be the Carl and the Passions "Hully Gully/Carol Hess for Student Body Prssident" performance from Spring 1959).
From "The Beach Boys" (Byron Preiss)...
ALAN: "I bumped into Brian on campus one day. Smash-o. We crossed paths. Litterally. I said, 'Brian, this is IT. We have to get together.' So we went into the music room between classes and sang Four Freshmen songs. When we got kicked out of the music room we'd finish up in the nurse's quarters. Then he told me more about his brothers... 'Carl, he's about twelve and he really sings good and plays the guitar too.' So I met the Wilson boys and Mike Love."
BRIAN: "It was Al who got us on the track leading to the recording studio. One day, just after we had all started singing together, he and his friend, Gary Winfrey, stopped by the house to see if I was home. They wanted to see if I was interested in helping out on a folk song they wanted to record, 'Sloop John B.' Although I wasn't home, Al and Gary spoke to my dad about finding a publisher who might be interested in recording the song. A few days later, Dad called Al's house and talked with his mom."
OK
PHLIP's POINT: If Al's introduction to Hite Morgan (via Murry Wilson) occurred AFTER Al and Brian bumped into each other at El Camino (lsate June 1961?) and AFTER Al had already started hanging out with Brian, Mike, and Carl, then The Islanders initial visit to Melrose (Morgan) occurred in the Summer of 1961 (not the Summer of 1960). And here would be the events that followed:
1. Alan, Gary, and Keith meet with the Morgans, audition Kingston Trio songs, are told they might get a call later. This would have occurred maybe around July 1st.
2. Six WEEKS (not six months) later (around mid-August), Alan, Gary, and Keith get a call from the Morgans. They are asked to work on "Rio Grande" (composed by Bruce Morgan).
3. The Islanders have problems with "Rio Grande." Alan, Gary, and Keith ask Brian for help (around August 20th).
4. The Islanders split up (Gary and Keith are replaced by Mike and Carl), and the new group visits Melrose (end of August) to audition "Sloop John B" (for some reason, "Rio Grande" has been abandoned).
5. While there, the new group is told by the Morgans that they need to record ORIGINAL material.
6. Dennis suggests they do "Surfin'," a song Brian has already started (this would be the tune--with Jan & Dean-style "bomps" & "dips" added and new "surf" lyrics by Mike--that that got Brian a "F" in Fred Morgan's music class at Hawthorne High in 1960).
7. Murry and Audree travel to Mexico City witb the Havens over Labor Day 1961. While the Wilsons are away, the new group rents instruments and rehearse "Surfin'."
8. Murry Wilson returns from Mexico, hears the new song, freaks out, then urges the group to take it to the Morgans.
9. First Beach Boys (Pendletones) recording (rehearsal) session on September 15th at Hite Morgan's home studio on Melrose.
Again, this is just a working hypothesis.
By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:01 am:
I agree with you, Phlip, that what you've laid out would seem to be the logical sequence of things given what we now know. In fact, if you look back up a few posts, you'll see you've pretty much mirrored my proposed chronology for that time period (albeit in greater detail):
> 6/61 - Al returns to CA, revives The Islanders (with Gary & Don), enrolls at El
> Camino College and meets Brian again
> Summer 1961 - Alan & Gary ask Audrey about a contact in the music industry,
> approach Hite Morgan and are called back weeks (not months) later to audition
> "Rio Grande" (with Keith Lent)
> 9/61 - Alan (with the Wilson brothers and Mike Love) re-auditions for the
> Morgans twice and helps form the Beach Boys, "Surfin'" demo recorded
We're definitely in agreement!
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:36 am:
Brad: This thread's gettin' kind of long, but I still should have taken the time to re-read your earlier posts more carefully. Sorry about that.
And I need to correct the date of the Carl and the Passions performance at the Hawthorne High School assembly. That would be Spring 1960 (not Spring 1959, as I erroneously stated), as "Hully Gully" was a local hit in L. A. in 1960, not 1959. So Carl would have actually been 13 (not 12) at the time.
Carl would then have entered Hawthorne High as a freshman in the Fall of 1960, and attended Hawthorne 'til he trasferred to Hollywood Professional School (which he attended with the Rovell sisters)... when?... 1962?... or 1963?
Also, other than coaching a little league team (where he met Judy Bowles, whose brother was on the team) and harmonizing with Mike and Maureen Love, what WAS Brian doing from June 1960 until June 1961? Was he working at Murry's shop, or delivering pizzas, or maybe working as a "Good Humor" man? Was he in fact attending El Camino CC full-time during that period, or (as is stated in the Beach Boys sometimes-fractured history) did he quit after only one semester in 1960 (which seems unlikely, else how did Al run into him at El Camino in June or July 1961?)?
By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:13 am:
** what WAS Brian doing from June 1960 until June 1961? Was he working at Murry's shop, or delivering pizzas, or maybe working as a "Good Humor" man? **
Personally, I love the idea of Brian working as a Good Humor man! Wonderful idea! LOL!
** Was he in fact attending El Camino CC full-time during that period, or (as is stated in the Beach Boys sometimes-fractured history) did he quit after only one semester in 1960 (which seems unlikely, else how did Al run into him at El Camino in June or July 1961?)? **
I think he almost had to have been enrolled at El Camino. I guess it's possible that he laid out a year (1960-61), then started college, but it would be fairly unusual for somebody to begin their college career with the short Summer session. Almost religiously, most freshmen start with the Fall semester.
While the book is far from being a reliable source, these quotes from Brian's "autobiography" support the idea he started school in the fall of 1960 and spent more than a single semester at El Camino:
"After graduating from high school, I spent the sumer working odd jobs and waiting for my first semester of college to begin. In the fall, I started El Camino Junior College, taking history, Spanish and psychology. I planned on spending a couple of years at El Camino and then transferring to a larger local university."
and, after "Surfin'" charted in Billboard:
"I began to think about quitting El Camino and devoting myself full-time to the Beach Boys, knowing that 'Surfin'' represented only the tip of my talent."
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:15 am:
The info for Brian dropping out of ECC after a semester is apparently wrong - I got it from... err, well, I've just checked, and it wasn't from either Leaf, White or Gaines, or even the pseudobiography, but in checking I discovered the reverse is true: in the Leaf book, in a 1964 interview Brian states unequivocally, (p.27, revised edition 1985) "I wasn't going to sit there and let any guy tell me that pop music is bad... After a year and a half I became a college drop-out, and I'm not sorry". So problem apparently solved - from 9/61 to circa 3/62, Brian was a student at El Camino, majoring in psychology with additional music & Spanish courses. Thus meeting Al in summer 1961 was entirely possible. Of course, this also means that my joke about Alan returning to CA, reviving the Islanders, doing an audition and helping to form The Pendletones at something approaching the speed of sound is seriously close to being accurate !
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:21 am:
Is this the BMI mag profile? Am I remembering that it was 1964, or the Billboard one that I think Ren Grevatt wrote? (Ren wrote one of them; this was several years before he became the Dead's publicist.) I have that photocopied somewhere.
What I drew was that Brian did not take any music courses at college level, and that he took mostly biz courses (no doubt with eye toward taking over the machine shop). But this is from memory.
Also, as I've mentioned before, I very much doubt that "Surfin" was the Fred Morgan sonata assignment. I think it was the early chords to "Surfer Girl," but my "proof" is logic more than evidence.
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:38 am:
Ah, now there I do remember - 'twas Fred Morgan himself who stated that what Brian turned in was "Surfin'", and as a music teacher, I think he'd have made further comment had one of his most promising pupils turned in something so obviously based on "When You Wish Upon A Star".
By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:56 pm:
AGD wrote:
** in the Leaf book, in a 1964 interview Brian states unequivocally, (p.27, revised edition 1985) "I wasn't going to sit there and let any guy tell me that pop music is bad... After a year and a half I became a college drop-out, and I'm not sorry". So problem apparently solved - from 9/61 to circa 3/62, Brian was a student at El Camino, majoring in psychology with additional music & Spanish courses. **
Not trying to be picky, but the way I figure it Brian would have started at ECC in September 1960 (he graduated from Hawthorne High in June 1960). A year-and-a-half would put him attending through the entire 1960-61 school year, the Summer 1961 session (that's when he ran into Al) and the Fall 1961 semester, which ended Jan. 26, 1962. Incredibly, that jibes perfectly with the story in his "autobiography" about him "quitting El Camino and devoting myself full-time to the Beach Boys" after "Surfin'" charted in Billboard (beginning Jan. 13, 1962).
** Of course, this also means that my joke about Alan returning to CA, reviving the Islanders, doing an audition and helping to form The Pendletones at something approaching the speed of sound is seriously close to being accurate! **
Not just "seriously close," but seemingly right on the money! What an incredible three months between June 11, 1961 (when Ferris Institute's Spring quarter ended) and Sept. 15, 1961 (when Hite Morgan recorded The Beach Boys for the first time)!
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:20 pm:
"Not trying to be picky, but the way I figure it Brian would have started at ECC in September 1960"
Exactly what I intended to say... of course it would have been better had I hit the '0' instead of the '1' !
A thought - I hope someone's archiving both this thread and the previous one (BB history 101).
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:44 pm:
What if?
June 1960- Brian and Al graduate from Hawthorne High
July 1960- Photo taken of the Islanders (with Bob Barrow)
August 1960- Al's parent move to Michigan, Bob Barrow leaves for college.
Early Sept. 1960- Al leaves to attend Ferris U.
Dec. 17- Jan. 3, 1961- Al returns to LA for Winter break, runs into Brian at El Camino (Brian and Al would both be Freshman and it's possible that there would have been a football game). It would also make it possible for ther Islanders to give the Morgans a demo tape Early 1961 (Jan.). Al then goes back to Ferris. About six months transpire.
After June 11, 1961- Al returns from Ferris U and the Morgans contact him about the Islanders recording a demo of the folk song Rio Grand. Then they go to Brian for help with the song.
Barb
By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 05:27 pm:
One major problem that I see is: why would Al have returned to LA for Winter break? Surely, he'd have spent Christmas with his family, and they were in Michigan. (Let's remember that we're talking about a guy who, according to his mom, hitchhiked from California to Michigan to be with his family after they moved away.)
Also, check out the comments from Al that I quoted earlier from the 1974 BB documentary. Al stated, "I bumped into him [Brian] at El Camino College. In my second year of college, I cam back west. My father was teaching at this other place. We came back to California to pursue another line of work, and I ended up back in Los Angeles, went to El Camino, and I was walking across the campus and, boom, there was Brian." So Al very clearly indicates he bumped into Brian after moving back to the West Coast with his family and at a time when he was enrolled at El Camino. If you accept what Al said, that means it had to be after June 11, 1961.
Furthermore, in that same BBC documentary, Al said that when he bumped into Brian on the El Camino campus, it had been "a year previous in a hamburger stand" since he'd last seen him. If we were to accept the scenario that Al and Brian bumped into each other in December 1960 or January 1961, "a year previous" would put them back in their senior year in high school, and surely they'd have seen each other in classes or in the hallways or at an assembly, rather than at a hamburger stand.
So, for those reasons, I just don't think it's a reasonable scenario that the first overture to Hite Morgan occured during Al's Winter break at the end of 1960.
Brad
By ????? on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:16 pm:
Wow, this thread has accomplished the impossible.
It's made Al Jardine and his early years interesting!
Keep it up. Kudos to everyone (esp. Brad and ADG)
for putting the timeline together.
Interesting that Dennis and Al were hanging out together early on. Those two are polar opposites.
Although they seemed to have had mutual respect for each other (e.g. Dennis/Al on the Hawthorne C.D. tracks complementing each others songcraft, Al in EH about to say Dennis couldn't sing, but catching himself). Now only one important question remains, what kind of car did Al buy with Dennis after the Winfrey loan? Brad if you can find that out, I'll cover the total research cost of your next book;)
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 09:02 pm:
Eric: It's best not to dare Brad like that... Unless you're prepared to make a substantial investment.
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:05 pm:
This from Gary, after I filled him in on our latest collaborative thoughts: he graduated in June 1959 and attended ECC from 9/59 - 6/63. Alan, Brian, Keith Lent & Bob Barrow all graduated the next year. Alan attended El Camino from Sept 1961 through sometime in late 1962 or early 1963, and Gary remembers seeing Brian and Al and singing together at the Nurse's office in early Sept 1961.
In his own words, "as for the date of the first time we met Hite Morgan. I said we dropped off a tape of "Wreck of the Hesperus" and six months or so later they called. So it would have to have been August or Sept 1960 when we dropped the tape since in Jan 1961 Al was at Ferris." Which makes sense, and which Brad has already postulated.
Gary thinks it was summer or early fall of '61 for the "Rio Grande" session, so as Brad (again !) rightly says, what a few weeks it must have been that summer of 1961
So, one missing piece of the puzzle - when did the Morgans set up their home studio ? I think I know a man who knows a man who could well know... but he's away on a business trip right now. Patience, boy... patience.
Of course, if anyone out there has any ideas about it, we're very receptive !
Oh yeah, the car - Gary recalls it was a '60 Chevvy 326, metal flake blue with a Corvette grille, competition clutch with a four on the floor, hot with ram induction.
You're right - I'm lying. He doesn't recall if it was for a car or not.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:52 am:
AGD: I'm doing my best to wrest the Cabin's Annual Anal Award from you for 2002!
(Hey, if posters on the "Smile Shop" board can endlessly debate "Smile," then we can endlessly debate "Surfin'"!)...
So you're gonna love this! Maybe everybody else understands the new chronology, but now I'm REALLY confused!
(From my post of about 24 hours ago)...
BRIAN: "It was Al who got us on the track leading to the recording studio. One day, just after we had all started singing together (PHLIP'S NOTE: This was AFTER Brian and Al bumped into each other at ECC), he and his friend, Gary Winfrey, stopped by the house to see if I was home. They wanted to see if I was interested in helping out on a folk song they wanted to record, 'Sloop John B.' Although I wasn't home, Al and Gary spoke to my dad about finding a publisher who might be interested in recording the song. A few days later, Dad called Al's house and talked with his mom."
OK
PHLIP's POINT: If Al's introduction to Hite Morgan (via Murry Wilson) occurred AFTER Al and Brian bumped into each other at El Camino (late June 1961?) and AFTER Al had already started hanging out with Brian, Mike, and Carl, then The Islanders initial visit to Melrose (Morgan) occurred in the Summer of 1961 (not the Summer of 1960).
That was my post from yesterday, and Brad concurred.
But Gary Winfrey's latest information conflicts with that.
Here's why.
If The Islanders made their Murry Wilson-Hite Morgan connection in 1960, then it occurred a year BEFORE Al bumped into Brian at El Camino. (According to Brian, Al and Gary came by the Wilson house looking for Brian--and made their Murry connection--AFTER Al and Brian bumped into each other at ECC). Does this mean Al bumped into Brian at ECC sometime in the Summer of 1960, BEFORE Al left for Michigan (Ferris Institute)? And was the nurse's quarters story from 1960, not 1961? If Gary Winfrey remembers Brian and Al singing in the nurse's quarters at ECC in September 1961, this would have been AFTER the Labor Day '61 "Surfin'" rehearsal at the Wilson house, and very close to (if not after) the first Morgan recording rehearsal on September 15th. Did Brian and Al sing at the nurse's quarters on a regular basis?
Is is possible the Islanders (Al, Gary, and Keith) made their intial "Murry Wilson/Hite Morgan" connection as late as August 1961 (just after Al and Brian bumped into each other), dropped off "The Wreck of the Hesperus," and then got "called back" to Melrose (Morgan) in late 1961, AFTER the Beach Boys recording session of October 8th, but before "Surfin'" was released (and became a local hit) in December 1961. Maybe Al was still more of an "Islander" than a "Beach Boy" as late as December 1961? After all, until "Surfin'" was released and became a hit, who woulda thunk the Beach Boys would become what they became? Even Al doubted the future of the Beach Boys as late as February 1962 (AFTER "Surfin'" had hit #3 on KFWB, when he declined to remain with the group).
One point in favor of this theory is that Al and Brian bumping into each other in August or September 1960 or August 1961 (instead of June or July 1961) would jibe with Al and Brian sharing the nurse's quarters with an injured football player, because college football teams would not have been allowed to have an official organized "Fall Practice" until sometime in August.
If Brian and Al bumped into each other in August 1961, then the Beach Boys came together in a matter of DAYS (which actually seems more plausible to me than weeks or months), SIMULTANEOUS with Al's continued involvement with the Islanders (Gary and Keith).
If Al and Brian bumped into each other in September 1960 (just after Al and Brian graduated from Hawthorne High, and just before Al left for Michigan), then that would fit all of Gary's recollections, but would mean there was a one year gap between Al and Brian's meeting at ECC, and Al jammin' with Brian, Mike, and Carl at the Wilson house, OR, a one year gap between the "meeting" at ECC and Al jammin' with the guys, and the eventual formation of the Beach Boys a year later in August 1961. It would also mean Al was either visiting the ECC campus (he was supposed to enroll at Pepperdine in September), OR was taking a class or two while waiting to enroll at Pepperdine. Except if he had a football scholarship at Pepperdine, he would have been working out with the Pepperdine football team in August and September. Unless he had already decided not to attend Pepperdine (instead opting to attend ECC in the Summer of 1960, before impulsively leaving for Michigan in September).
So does Ferris show that Alan Jardine transferred any credits from ECC when he enrolled in September 1960?
I hope SOMEBODY has told Al Jardine about this thread. I'll bet he hasn't gotten this much attention in his whole life.
By AGD (Agd) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 03:44 pm:
OK, the full version is now up on the webpage at:
http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/Beginning.html
"So does Ferris show that Alan Jardine transferred any credits from ECC when he enrolled in September 1960?"
No, because he went straight to Ferris from Hawthorne High. Then he went from Ferris to ECC in the fall of 1961. As for working out at Pepperdine with the football team, Gary doesn't recall anything about a football scolarship, and as Alan was living with the Winfrey family before he headed out to ferris, I think this is a significant point. Alan's mom is the sole source for the Pepperdine part of the tale.
Regarding Brian's statement about "Sloop John B" (and allowing for it being from a largely discredited book), it's evident that he's talking about the summer 1961 audition, and conflating it with the summer 1960 suggestion by Audree that Alan & Gary go see Hite. (Conflating - isn't that a great word ?). Remember, Todd Gold wrote this and doubtless melded the two stories into one.
By Brad on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 03:42 am:
AGD wrote:
** In his own words, "as for the date of the first time we met Hite Morgan. I said we dropped off a tape of "Wreck of the Hesperus" and six months or so later they called. So it would have to have been August or Sept 1960 when we dropped the tape since in Jan 1961 Al was at Ferris." Which makes sense, and which Brad has already postulated. **
Yeah, I postulated it, but that was early on, before we'd pulled together a lot more information. I admit that on the face of things, it looks like it fits that Al's and Gary's initial contact with Hite Morgan was in the summer of 1960, but I'm not so sure. I'm bothered by the fact that Al has indicated he didn't mean the rest of the Wilson family (besides Brian) until after he and Brian bumped into each other on the ECC campus -- which I think we've pretty firmly established had to be sometime during the summer of 1961.
Also, Al himself has indicated that when he bumped into Brian at ECC, it'd been "a year previous in a hamburger stand" since he'd last seen him." That would have been sometime in the summer of 1960, which would jibe with Al having been away at Ferris Institute in Michigan, but don't you think that if Audrey and/or Murry had directed him to Hite at about that same time, he'd have said something about it? After all, he was talking about the events that led up to the formation of The Beach Boys, and the initial contact with Hite Morgan was a crucial event!
The picture Al's painted of the relationship between him and Brian prior to their chance re-meeting at ECC makes them almost virtual strangers. He's said that he and Brian ran in different crowds in high school and belonged to "rival" music groups. The ONLY contact between them seems to have been the football accident in which Al's leg was broken and Al seeing Brian perform at a school assembly. So where would Al have gotten the familiarity to approach Brian's parents just a couple of months after high school graduation?
Finally, if we accept Gary's recollection on this event, WHEN was it that Hite called back? If the tape had been dropped off in the summer of 1960, then it couldn't have been SIX months after that -- Al was in Michigan at that time, and reading between the lines of what Gary says, he seems to indicate that Al was local and available to respond immediately to Hite's callback. So, it would have to be more like ELEVEN or TWELVE months after they dropped off the tape that Hite called back! And why would they have dropped off a tape with Hite at that time anyway, when Alan was preparing to move and go to college in Michigan in just a few short weeks? And why would they have had to recruit Keith Lent to sing with them at that point, when Bob Barrow would still have been around (he didn't go off to college until the same time Al did)?
Sorry, but there are just too many little things that don't add up to allow me to accept the premise that Al & Gary made initial contact with Hite Morgan in the summer of 1960. Rather, I think that it was in the summer of 1961, after Al bumped into Brian on the ECC campus. All of the little details fall into place, except for the fact that Gary remembers there was a six-month gap between his and Al's initial contact with Hite and their being called back -- and I'm not sure how much stock we can place in that specific recollection. I hate to say it, but Gary's memories haven't proven to be even close to 100 percent accurate and he's done a fair amount of revising since additional facts have started to surface. So why couldn't he also be wrong about how long the gap was? Maybe not six months, but rather something more like six weeks?
** So, one missing piece of the puzzle - when did the Morgans set up their home studio ? [...] Patience, boy... patience. **
Actually, I think I already know enough about the history of Hite's studios to resolve that question without trying to get an answer out of Bruce. Hite's Mayberry Street home studio -- a mono facility and the location of the Pendletons' demo session on Sept. 15, 1961 -- had been up and running for at least several years by that time. It was their Stereo Masters studio on Melrose Avenue -- a stereo facility at which the vocals for the Kenny & The Cadets sides were overdubbed -- that wasn't set up until 1961 or early 1962. If Al & Gary went to Hite's home studio, then the date that studio was set up isn't going to help us -- it was well before the summer of 1960.
Brad
By Brad on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 03:48 am:
Andrew, is this right?
** This from Gary, after I filled him in on our latest collaborative thoughts: he graduated in June 1959 and attended ECC from 9/59 - 6/63. **
He attended El Camino College, a TWO-YEAR facility, for FOUR YEARS -- 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62 and 1962-63?!!! Was he attending only part-time or what? Phlip questioned why Al might have been attending ECC for a third year; how do we rationalize Gary attending for four years?
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:22 am:
That's what he said. Looks like a few more questions might be in order.
Looks like I've got some more re-writing to do as well.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 09:16 am:
Again, from the 1974 BBC documentary cited earlier by Brad:
ALAN: "Up to that point [where he'd bumped into Brian on the El Camino campus], I had seen Brian, I think, a year previous in a hamburger stand, if you can believe that. And I said -- I dropped the word then -- I said, 'Let's get together, Brian, I'm going back east for a year.' So he said, 'Fine, I'll see you later,' you know. So this was later."
From "The Beach Boys" (Byron Preiss)...
ALAN: "I bumped into Brian on campus one day. Smash-o. We crossed paths. Litterally. I said, 'Brian, this is IT. We have to get together.' So we went into the music room between classes and sang Four Freshmen songs. When we got kicked out of the music room we'd finish up in the nurse's quarters. Then he told me more about his brothers... 'Carl, he's about twelve and he really sings good and plays the guitar too.' So I met the Wilson boys and Mike Love."
From the Todd Gold "autobiography"...
BRIAN: "It was Al who got us on the track leading to the recording studio. One day, just after we had all started singing together, he and his friend, Gary Winfrey, stopped by the house to see if I was home. They wanted to see if I was interested in helping out on a folk song they wanted to record, 'Sloop John B.'"
(PHLIP's NOTE: Brian probably confused "The Wreck
of the Hesperus" with "Sloop John B").
"Although I wasn't home, Al and Gary spoke to my dad about finding a publisher who might be interested in recording the song. A few days later, Dad called Al's house and talked with his mom."
Here is my point, and I believe it is important:
Murry and Audree gave the Islanders Hite Morgan's name and phone number AFTER Al and Brian "bumped into each other" at El Camino... No EARLIER than June 1961 (and probably more like the first week of August, if football practice was under way... or maybe even later!).
In fact, if it wasn't for the legendary Mexico City trip over Labor Day and the "rehearsal" at Morgan's home studio dated "September 15th," the week of September 11th (the first week of the Fall Semester at ECC) makes even MORE sense for Brian and Al running into each other. In fact, maybe that's what happened... .
Why? The Jardines returned from Michigan after the end of the Spring semester at Ferris. They may not have left immediately. Maybe they visited family in Ohio first. They probably drove back. Donald and Virginia may have taken advantage of the occasion to spend some quality time with the kids (especially Al,who would soon be out of the house). So stops at the Petrified Forest, the Painted Desert, the Grand Canyon, and Louie's Lizard Farm would have been an irresistable MUST for any American family driving cross-country. Then they moved into a new house in Torrance. So I would doubt that Al got back in time to enroll at El Camino for the Summer Semester (June 21, right?). More likely Al's first appearance at El Camino was September 11th (the first day of the Fall Semester). And everything happened--VERY QUICKLY, for sure--after that.
1. Monday, September 11th: Al bumps into Brian. They rehearse at the nurse's office with Gary Winfrey and an injured fullback (who sang bass). WE know it's a school day (Al says he bumped into Brian "between classes"), and Brian says the player injured his knee "at the afternoon's football scrimmage"... probably late afternoon... and there is NO WAY a college football team would be having a "scrimmage" in July... August, sure. But not July. And school was NOT IN SESSION between August 2 and September 11. (Remember, it was "between classes" that Al and Brian bumped into each other).
2. Brian is impressed by Al and Gary, but not by the bass singin' fullback. Brian invites Al over to the Wilson house to meet Mike and Carl. Maybe he goes there later that night (September 11th) or the next day (Tuesday September 12th).
He also meets Murry and Audree for the first time.
3. Tuesday September 12th or Wednesday September 13th: Now feeling as though they are friends of Brian's (and the rest of the family), Al and Gary stop by the Wilson house with "The Wreck of the Hesperus" to ask Brian for help. Brian isn't home. Murry and Audree give Al Hite Morgan's name and number.
4. That evening (Tuesday September 12th or Wednesday September 13th), or maybe later that week, the Islanders (Al, Gary, and Don or Keith) audition for Hite and Dorinda Morgan. Hite & Dorinda tell the Islanders that they can't do anything for them "right now," but they'll call them if anything comes up. Demoralized, the Islanders break up (temporarily).
5. Impressed by Al's determination and ambition (something he wishes he could see more in Brian),
Murry calls Al and urges him to come over to the house and work with Brian.
6. The Pendletones (Beach Boys) start to jam in earnest. Murry tells them to go see Hite.
From the Byron Preiss book:
DORINDA MORGAN: "Murry called us up and said, 'See if you can do something with him (Brian)... Audree and I are going to Mexico City.""
7. Later that same week (probably Friday afternoon after school)--Dorinda says it was "a dreary September day in L. A."--maybe we can check the weather reports from that period, because there couldn't have been too many dreary L. A. days in September--the Pendletones audition for the Morgans. They play a couple of "Top Ten" tunes. The Morgans encourage them to do something original, and they give the boys "Luau" (written by their son, Bruce). Dennis suggests "Surfin'." Brian and Mike finish it that night. Meanwhile, Murry and Audree are in Mexico City with the Havens.
(NOTE: Here is the first Beach Boys Blaspheme... This would be the weekend of September 15-17, NOT the Labor Day weekend).
8. With the help of Alan's mom, Brian and the guys rent instruments (drum kit and stand-up bass). They rehearse "Surfin."
9. Murry and Audree return home late Sunday (September 17th). Murry's initial anger turns to excitement, and he tells the boys to get themselves over to Hite's STAT.
10. Sometime during the next week (September 18-25), the Pendletones play Surfin' for the Morgans at their home studio on Mayberry Street. Hite books studio time at World Pacific for October 3rd.
(NOTE: This is the second blastephemy... maybe the "rehearsal" session is September 25, NOT September 15... "15" versus "25"... an easy typo to make).
Why not? Is the Mexico City trip really locked into the Labor Day weekend? And is the "Surfin" rehearsal at the Morgan's home studio for sure from September 15? Could it maybe have been more like September 25 instead? Or the "weekend" of September 15th? Because all we know for sure (per AFM contract) is that the recording session at World Pacific occurred on October 3rd.
The date of September 15th was NOT taken from an official AFM contract, right?
11. Sometime in March 1962 (six months after their initial audition, and just AFTER Al has left the Beach Boys), Hite calls Gary and Al and offers "Rio Grande" to the Islanders. Al, Gary and Don continue to rehearse over the next year, but nothing comes of it.
12. Al drifts back into the Beach Boys tent during the "Surfin' USA" sessions (January-February 1963), and returns (permanently) in June 1963, when Brian "retires" from touring.
After all, if the long-held "Al left the Beach Boys in 1962 to go to dental school in Michigan" legend proved to be inaccurate, why not the date of Murry & Audree's Mexico City trip, and the date of the "Surfin'" rehearsal session at Morgan's home studio?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 09:58 am:
I have sent an E-MAIL to the National Weather Service in L. A. requesting southland weather reports from August and September 1961. We're looking for a "dreary/overcast" day. I'll let you know what I find out. If NOAA doesn't respond, I'll try the Los Angeles Public Library reference/peroiodicals, or the L. A. historical Society.
Don't worry, AGD. We're gonna nail this sucka.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 10:59 am:
Hey, did any o' you guys ask Al yet?
By Cam Mott on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 11:58 am:
Finally something I can help with.
In LA Co. the Palmdale station reported rain on August 4, 5, 23 and 24 and no precip in September. In Orange Co. the Tustin station reported rain on Aug. 5 and Sept. 22. Yorba Linda reported a thunderstorm with no measurably precip on Aug. 4 and rain on Sept. 21. Santa Ana reported no measurable precip for August through September. That's from UofC records, maybe NOAA has more detailed records.
By ???? on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:07 pm:
I don't think anybody has/or will Mikie......
Poor Al, first waiting for a bus
and now a phone call that will
probably never come.
By AGD (Agd) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:06 pm:
Asking Alan is plan B - I have the technology...
Phlip, I can see where you're coming from - if Alan went to Ferris before the BB formed and not after, then is the Labor Day rehersal also possibly invalid ? Reasonable lateral thinking. However, I can't really that the 15/25 typo on board - too convienient, too pat (I'm thinking out loud here). I'm essentially with Brad, in that Gary could well be saying six months but meaning six weeks. I'm in the process of (delicately) asking him about this, and about spending four years at a two-year college.
Also this - "Al and Gary stop by the Wilson house with "The Wreck of the Hesperus" to ask Brian for help". That should read "Rio Grande" - they'd already recorded "TWOTH" offf their own bat (presumably on a domestic recorder - maybe even a Wollensak )and played it for Hite.
The other problem I have is with the placing of any reliance on 'Brian's' recollections as expounded in "WIBN".
Dorinda's recollections are interesting. For one, she mentioins they were in the Melrose office, not their house, and implies that the audition was there as well, which is apparently not so. There's one other possibly useful bit of info, which could well mean Phlip is right about a typo were it not too extreme. Check this:
"When Murry & Audree returned from a vacation they were taking in Mexico, the boys were on the Top Ten list at Music City"
So... either Murry & Audree took two trips to Mexico in the space of three months... or they didn't go to Mexico with the Havens at all... or Dorinda was mistaken. Could someone post the Whitcombe article, or is it on the net somewhere ?
Sorry for the random nature of these musings - it's late and I'm tired.
By AGD (Agd) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:11 pm:
One last one for today:
"1. Monday, September 11th: Al bumps into Brian. They rehearse at the nurse's office with Gary Winfrey and an injured fullback (who sang bass). WE know it's a school day (Al says he bumped into Brian "between classes"), and Brian says the player injured his knee "at the afternoon's football scrimmage"... probably late afternoon... and there is NO WAY a college football team would be having a "scrimmage" in July... August, sure. But not July. And school was NOT IN SESSION between August 2 and September 11. (Remember, it was "between classes" that Al and Brian bumped into each other)."
In a 1964 interview, Brian remembered that they spent two weeks in August rehearsing in his music room, which fits better with the Labor Day story.
By Susan on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:42 pm:
Why ask Alan? It's WAY more fun to watch the layers be pulled aside......and i'm guessing it's a hoot and a half to be on the chase! Asking Alan takes all the fun out of it!
CONFIRM with Alan....
By Cam Mott on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 05:42 pm:
Oh yeah, I didn't notice it before but UofC's resource has a designation for "cloudy" but it doesn't show in any of the stations mentioned records for September 1961. September 22 was a Friday in 1961 with .02 inches of rain in Orange Co.. However conditions vary from station to station within counties so the weather could have been different where Dorinda was.
By AGD (Agd) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 11:40 pm:
Here's an update from Gary: regarding his being at ECC for four years, he replied:
"Yes El Camino is a two year college if you take a full load each semester. There is no time limit [and] I was taking less credits and working."
As for the dating of the first meeting with the Morgans:
"I remember that we took the tape and it seemed like a long time passed before hearing back from the Morgans. Much longer than the 3 months from which Al returned (mid June 1961) to when "Surfin" was recorded. I could be wrong, but I just remember that it seemed a long time from the time we took the tape until the audition. We just kind of forgot about the whole thing. I also have a problem with the timing as Al was leaving for college. The only thing I can think of was that Al really didn't want to go Michigan and the only reason he did was that his parents moved back there. If we got a recording contract he probably would have stayed in Southern Calif. I haven't heard from Al, but believe me I have a few questions for him. If I had to choose between the two dates Summer 1960 or 1961 I would choose 1960 because a lot of events would have to have taken place in The Summer of 1961 and I think that I would have remembered. Just another thought - Bob would have already left in August 1960 as they start football practice well before the term begins. The first game is usually played the first weekend after the term begins [note - Bob Barrow attended and graduated from Brigham Young University under a football scholarship]. Also since we got the Hite Morgan idea from Brian's mother (while visiting Brian), that means Al and Brian would have seen each other a couple of months before the Fall School Term 1961, but when they saw each other at El Camino a lot of time had passed between seeing each other."
So, more food for thought. get stuck in, guys
Oh, and a final line from Gary:
"BTW I have found the recording of "Wreck of the Hesperus" !"
Opening track of the next BB rarities project ?
I'll say this for Gary - if it were me being pestered by some limey about things that happened 40+ years ago, and who kept coming back and saying, in essence, "no, you're wrong about that" every time I told him something else, I'd have pulled the modem cable out a long time ago. This man has the patience of Job.
By Brad on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:13 am:
Phlip wrote:
** maybe the "rehearsal" session is September 25, NOT September 15... "15" versus "25"... an easy typo to make **
Except that it's not a typed date on the original audition tape box. It's handwritten, and I find it nearly impossible to believe that somebody could misdate something by hand by 10 days! One or two days, maybe, but not 10!
So, my analysis is that what you've proposed simply won't stand up, Phlip. The acoustic audtion tapes were recorded Sept. 15, 1961, the timing of which tends to support the Labor Day weekend story. Which means that Al's bumping into Brian and the initial sessions with Hite Morgan had to be sometime earlier during the Summer of 1961.
AGD quoted Gary Winfrey:
** "I also have a problem with the timing as Al was leaving for college. The only thing I can think of was that Al really didn't want to go Michigan and the only reason he did was that his parents moved back there." **
Which, to some degree, fits with Virginia Jardine's recollections:
"We moved to Big Rapids, Michigan. [...] We left the city. We wanted Al to come with us. He didn't want to leave, he was happy where he was. So he got this football scholarship at Pepperdine. He decided to stay there and use the scholarship. But I don't know ... he hitchiked across, hitchhiked to join us in Big Rapids."
The only piece of information that seems to contradict her recollections (as well as Gary's statement) is the information I got from Ferris State that Al's acceptance into the school was approved in June 1960. That means that at the time Al graduated from high school, the Jardines already knew they'd be moving there during the summer and that Al would be attending school there in the fall. Of course, acceptance at Ferris could have been just a fallback plan for Al if nothing else panned out, so I'm not going to argue that the Ferris acceptance date precludes the scenario that Gary paints. He was there, I wasn't, and his story does seem reasonable.
More from Gary Winfrey (via AGD):
** "If I had to choose between the two dates Summer 1960 or 1961 I would choose 1960 because a lot of events would have to have taken place in The Summer of 1961 and I think that I would have remembered. Just another thought - Bob would have already left in August 1960 as they start football practice well before the term begins. The first game is usually played the first weekend after the term begins [note - Bob Barrow attended and graduated from Brigham Young University under a football scholarship]. Also since we got the Hite Morgan idea from Brian's mother (while visiting Brian), that means Al and Brian would have seen each other a couple of months before the Fall School Term 1961, but when they saw each other at El Camino a lot of time had passed between seeing each other." **
Everything Gary says makes sense, if we make one assumption that differs from the commonly accepted picture of the relationship between Al and Brian at that time. As I pointed out further up in this thread, the relationship prior to their re-meeting at ECC has been depicted by Al as being that of almost virtual strangers -- i.e., belonging to rival music groups and running in entirely different crowds, with almost no contact. To accept Gary's story changes that somewhat. It means that Brian and Al had a substantial enough relationship immediately after their high school graduation that Al would have dropped by Brian's house looking for him and would have known enough about Brian's parents to ask them about a contact in the music industry. To my mind, that isn't just a casual relationship; that's a friendship that has included some significant amount of conversation. (I know that I didn't immediately tell casual high school acquaintances what my parents did for a living! I can't imagine that Brian would have either.)
But I can accept what Gary says, because it does make sense. It would go a long way toward explaining why Al was so determined in the summer of 1960 (when they met at the hamburger stand) and in the summer of 1961 (when they met again at ECC) to make music with Brian -- i.e., Al had talked with Brian at length, on at least the subject of music, at some earlier point in time, a conversation that must have included the revelation that Brian's dad was something of an established songwriter with contacts in the music industry.
Which brings me back again to Virgina Jardine's interview with Chuck Harter and Alan Boyd, because there's some support there for a more extensive early friendship between Brian and Al:
Q: Did [Al] get serious about music at a certain age and decide that was something he wanted to do?
VJ: Never. He wanted to be a doctor. But then he met Brian on the football team, and Brian was so musical.
Q: When did Al start singing with Brian?
VJ: In high school, when they were seniors.
So, as far as I'm concerned, unless somebody comes up with something concrete that says otherwise, I'm ready to accept that there was a fairly close relationship -- at least on things musical -- between Al and Brian as far back as their senior year in high school (1959-1960). Which then makes it quite reasonable that Gary & Al would drop by Brian's home in the summer of 1960 and ask Audrey about a contact in the music industry.
But even that leaves one unanswered question: If it was late summer 1960 (probably August, after Bob Barrow had left) that Gary & Alan dropped off their tape with Hite, WHEN DID HE CALL THEM BACK? As I've already pointed out, it couldn't have been just six months later (February 1961, when Al would have been in Michigan). Rather, it would have had to be at least TEN or ELEVEN MONTHS later, in June or July 1961, after Al was back from Michigan. That certainly seems to work in the chronology, but would it be possible to run that by Gary for confirmation, Andrew? If he says "okay" to it, then I think we've nailed this series of events down as tight as we're likely to get it.
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:29 am:
Do you ever regret starting something ?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 03:19 am:
From the Geoffrey Himes interview with Carl Wilson (1982):
CARL: In the fall of 1961, my dad and mom went down to Mexico City on a business trip. They left us with $80 for food, spending money and emergencies. As soon as they left, we all got into Brian's car and went down to this music store on Hawthorne Avenue and rented some instruments. Alan's mom rented us a big acoustic bass, an amplifier, a couple guitars. I already had a guitar, a Kay that my dad had got me in Los Angeles. Alan had wanted to start a folk group, so he had been in touch with my dad's publisher, Hite and Dorinda Morgan. So we took our rented instruments down to the Morgans' home studio where they made their demos. In one afternoon, we recorded four songs: a song by the Morgans' son Bruce, one of Alan's folk numbers, one of Brian's Four Freshmen tunes and a song that Brian and Mike had made up called "Surfin'." I played guitar, Alan played upright bass, and Brian played snare drum with a pencil. In fact, he took his shirt off and put it over the drum because it was too loud. Mike was on one microphone and everyone else was on another mic. We sounded so shitty at first; we were so shaky and lame. After all, I was just 14 and a sophomore in high school."
OK.
Notice anything interesting? Like that Murry & Audree's trip to Mexico City and the subsequent renting of the instruments with "emergency food money" relates directly to the Beach Boys (Pendletones) cutting "demos" with Hite Morgan. It happened AT THE SAME TIME. The instruments were NOT used for some ad hoc rehearsal at the Wilson house that pre-dates the recorded rehearsal dated 9-15-61. The legendary "rented instruments" were actually used to cut the very tracks laid down at Morgan's home studio on Friday, September 15th, 1961! So Murry and Audree left for Mexico City about ten days AFTER Labor Day. (If the September 15th date on the tape box is accurate).
And if Dorinda Morgan was correct in her recollection that Murry asked the Morgans to audition the band just as the Wilsons were about to leave for Mexico, then BOTH the audition (where Dennis suggested "Surfin'," and where the Morgans presumably gave the Pendletones "Luau") AND the recorded rehearsal at Morgan's home studio (of September 15th) occurred just AFTER Murry and Audree left for Mexico, probably within a day (or perhaps hours) of each other.
And this means that everything did occur VERY, VERY quickly, once Murry and Audree left town. It means "Surfin'" was written VERY fast.
It also means Al bumping into Brian at El Camino COULD have occurred AFTER the start of the Fall Semester (September 11th), when both classes were in session AND the football team would be practicing.
If Brian's recollection that Murry (or Audree) gave Hite Morgan's name and number to Al and Gary AFTER Brian and Al "bumped into each other" at El Camino is correct, and if the "meeting" at El Camino occurred on or about 9-11-61, then Al and Gary gave the Morgans "The Wreck of the Hesperus" (recorded with Bob Barrow perhaps in July 1961, while Bob was home for the Summer from BYU?) on September 12 or 13, just a couple of days before Murry and Audree left town, and just prior to Al's return to the Morgans with Brian, Mike, Carl, and Dennis (which probably occurred on Thursday, September 14th).
And then Gary Winfrey's recollection that Hite called back about six months later (and had the Islanders rehearse "Rio Grande") would place that event in early 1962, about the time Al left the Beach Boys. That might help explain why Al left the Beach Boys, and why Al was involved in the Kenny & the Cadets session on March 8th... like Val Poliuto, he was not there as a Beach Boy. Rather, Al would have been present because he (and the Islanders) were working with Hite Morgan on "Rio Grande."
I'm still waiting for the weather report from NOAA. Dorinda Morgan related that the day of the first (initial) Pendletones audition (where Dennis suggested they write a song about surfing) was a "dreary September afternoon."
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:17 am:
Problem, Phlip - if you allow that Carl is right about taking the rented instruments down to Hite's studio, you also have to allow he's on the money when he says they "recorded four songs: a song by the Morgans' son Bruce, one of Alan's folk numbers, one of Brian's Four Freshmen tunes and a song that Brian and Mike had made up called "Surfin'."
And they didn't - OK, they cut a Bruce Morgan tune ("Luau") and "Surfin'", but the only other song cut was Dorinda's "Lavender". No folk song, no Four Freshman number. Can't have it both ways. Carl's account is suspect in other details - the usually stated amount of food money is $300 (although Carl himself has been quoted as saying it was $800 !), and if Carl had his own guitar and Alan played bass, why hire two more guitars, especially if money was so short they had to tap Alan's mom for some more greenbacks ? Plus, if they used the rented gear for the demo recording, what did they use to rehearse on ? No bass, no drums, two guitars, Brian's organ. If they were using new instruments for the first time at the demo session, I'm not surprised it sounded shitty !
"And then Gary Winfrey's recollection that Hite called back about six months later (and had the Islanders rehearse "Rio Grande") would place that event in early 1962, about the time Al left the Beach Boys."
Except that just about every source has The Islanders asking Brian to help them out with "Rio Grande", which in turn led to the Morgan audition. Sorry, Phlip, it just doesn't fit the sequence of events. but that's OK - as Mr. Holmes memorably said, "once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, is what happened."
But time-out, and let's look at the broader picture. What a trip this has been ! Go back to early March: everything was set in stone post 9/61. Alan left the band to go to Michigan to study dentistry. Fact. Three weeks later, we know that this simply isn't possible, we know when he really attended Ferris, we know why - dad was on the faculty - and we now know more about Alan's pre-BB group than anyone could really want to know, members, songs, even got a photo of them. Twenty-one days - with bathroom breaks - to rewrite early BB history that's stood for over 40 years. That's impressive, and we should all be happy with our part in it, because it's been a collaborative effort by NSMB stalwarts. Has any other fansite on the net ever done something like this ? I seriously doubt it. Could it have been done any other way ? Possibly, but not in three weeks. Gentlemen, I salute you one and all.
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 07:13 am:
Been out of pocket all weekend. At home tonight, I'll get my copy of Whitcomb and report on it.
I do remember that reading it and the other sources back in 1996 prodded the thought that the Wilson-Haven trip almost certainly wasn't over Labor Day weekend. I don't remember my rationale.
Fred Morgan, to my mind, wouldn't have recognized the "Wish Upon a Star" motif. I didn't until I read it in White, and was always more convinced that Brian drew from "Earth Angel." I think it is more likely that he would have confused the two Brian songs -- particularly since I feel certain that Brian's original written version of SG was in 4/4 and most likely didn't reflect the triplets in the instrumental.
I suppose it is possible that enough parts of the "Surfin'" legend are inaccurate that Brian could have had the song in writing 15 months before its recording. But they would have to include 1) That such a minor melody would have been saved and reused, 2) The whole Dennis serendipity in the studio story, at least if the song was performable the previous spring, 3) That Brian would have so sloughed off a music class as to present "Surfin" as a class assignment. I have an easier time believing that he'd submit the chord sequence of SG, although I can imagine him doing a sequence of Domino-inspired chords that Fred Morgan might later have mistaken for the song "Surfin."
As I said before, with a nod to Will Rogers talking about Calvin Coolidge, it's no so much what we don't know as how much we do know that's wrong. Next we're going to find out that it was Dennis waiting for a bus, and Al had a ride all along with a pretty cheerleader that had thought better of marrying Mike.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 08:54 am:
Recap...
What seems pretty likely:
1. Alan Jardine and Brian Wilson graduated from Hawthorne High School in June 1960;
2. The Islanders (Alan Jardine, Gary Winfrey, and Bob Barrow) recorded "The Wreck of the Hesperus" sometime in 1960. This crude recording was eventually played for Hite and Dorinda Morgan. The Morgans weren't interested at the time, and said they would call later if they got something for them. The Morgans eventually did call back, and the Islanders were given a Bruce Morgan song called "Rio Grande" to rehearse and (hopefully) record.
3. Alan Jardine attended Ferris Institute in Big Rapids, Michigan, for two semesters, from September 16, 1960 to June 11, 1961. While there, he lived with his family in Big Rapids. Donald Jardine was a professor at Ferris at the time.
3. After the 1960-61 school year, the Jardines moved back to California (Torrance), and Alan attended El Camino Community College. It is unknown if his first semester at El Camino was the Summer or Fall semester 1961.
4. Brian Wilson was enrolled as a full-time student at El Camino Community College from September 1960 through January 1962. It is unknown if he attended El Camino during the Summer Semester 1961. He worked "odd jobs" the summer after graduating from high school, before enrolling at ECCC.
5. Brian and Al "bumped into each other" on the El Camino campus sometime in 1961 between June 11 and September 15. They had not seen each other since before Al left for Michigan in September 1960.
6. The Pendletones (Beach Boys) recorded "demos" of "Surfin'," "Luau," and "Lavender" at Hite Morgan's home studio on Mayberry Street on Friday, September 15, 1961.
7. Audree and Murry Wilson went to Mexico City with another couple sometime around September 1961. While they were away, Brian and the gang rented musical instruments (with the help of Alan's mom).
Here's what we don't know:
1. When did Alan and Brian "bump into each other" at El Camino?
THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE: If the meeting occurred "between classes," then it MUST have been during the Summer Semester (ended August 2, 1961) OR during the Fall Semester (began September 11, 1961). If the El Camino football team was having a scrimmage that day, then it could not have been in June or July. If the Jardines did not return promptly from Michigan (within 10 days or so after the end of the Spring Semester), Alan would have missed the start of the Summer Semester at El Camino and PROBABLY would not have enrolled.
2. When did the Islanders get Hite Morgan's name and phone number from Audree (or Murry) Wilson?
THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE: If it was during the Summer of 1960 (up until Al left for Michigan), then Al and Gary must have been friends with Brian Wilson at the time. Or at least would have had some reason to believe Brian had "connections" in the music industry. (Murry, maybe?). But if this was the case, then Hite and Dorinda contacted Gary Winfrey BEFORE Al returned from Michigan with the offer of "Rio Grande," and Al's imminent return must have been known to Gary before Al finished the Spring Semester, OR, "Rio Grande" was offered to the Islanders AFTER Al had returned, and the gap between "The Wreck of the Hesperus" audition and the Morgans giving them "Rio Grande" would have been at least ten months (Gary remembers it as six months). And if it did happen that Gary was given "Rio Grande" at about the time of Al's return from Michigan (ten months or so after "The Wreck of the Hesperus" audition), then how long after that before Al "bumped into" Brian at El Camino (which led to Al, Gary, and Brian singing songs together in the ECCC nurse's quarters), bringing Brian (briefly) into the Islanders circle (to help with "Rio Grande")?
3. When did Murry and Audree go to Mexico City?
THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE: If Murry and Audree went to Mexico City sometime AFTER September 15th, then the story that Brian and the guys rented instruments for a home rehearsal (pre-9-15-61 Hite Morgan recording rehearsal session) could not be true. If they went to Mexico City BEFORE September 11th, then Al MUST have "bumped into" Brian at El Camino sometime prior to the start of the Fall Semester. HOWEVER... IF Murry & Audree went to Mexico City during the week of September 11th, then it is POSSIBLE that Al "bumped into" Brian at El Camino at the start of the Fall Semester (between classes, and while the football team was having a scrimmage). However, if it happened that way, then Brian's involvement with the Islanders (and "Rio Grande") was VERY short-lived, and the events of September 11-15 were very rapid (mercurial).
4. Were there any "dreary" days (weather-wise) in L. A. during August and September 1961?
REASON THIS IS A PROBLEM: Dorinda Morgan remembered the day the Pendletones (Beach Boys) came in for their very first audition as "a dreary September day in 1961."
Also, regarding Carl Wilson's recollection of the guys cutting FOUR songs at the 9-15-61 recording rehearsal session... how about these...
1. Surfin'
2. Luau
3. Lavender (not knowing who wrote it, Carl would mistake this one for a "Brian Wilson/Four Freshmen-type song")
4. Rio Grande (not knowing who wrote it, Carl would remember it as an "Al Jardine Folk Song").
BTW, was there an attempt by the Pendletones to record "Rio Grande" at the 9-15-61 session? Or was Carl maybe just remembering it as a song they had rehearsed in preparation for the session?
By Mrs_dauber (Mrs_dauber) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 11:18 am:
Has anybody considered that Al & Brian's meeting at El Camino may have had nothing to do with attending classes? Either one could have been on campus that day to meet with friends, look up something at the library, visit the career services office, etc.? Maybe one of the aforementioned 'odd jobs' involved working at El Camino?
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 12:27 pm:
Excellent point, particularly since a college campus is always a really pleasant place to play hookie from just about anything.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 12:50 pm:
Mrs. Dauber: What would seem to preclude that is the following:
(From Byron Preiss book "The Beach Boys"):
ALAN: I bumped into Brian on campus one day. Smash-o. We crossed paths. Literally. I said, 'Brian, this is IT. We have to get together.' So we went into the music room between classes and sang Four Freshmen songs."
"... between classes...."
So, whether Al and/or Brian were actually students at the time, school WAS in session. Which dates the "meeting" to either the period between June 21 and August 2 (Summer Semester), or September 11 (beginning of the Fall Semester).
Likewise, if the fourth member of the ad hoc group singing in the nurse's quarters that day was indeed (as Brian later reported) an El Camino fullback with a knee injury sustained in a "scrimmage," then the date CANNOT be pre-August, either, because college football teams (even now, but ESPECIALLY in the 1960's) do NOT begin Fall Practice until August.
Ergo, the meeting occurred September 11th, right at the beginning of the Fall Semester.
And then... and then... eh-eh...
Brian invites Al to came over to the Wilson house and meet Mike and Carl...
And then?
Al convinces the guys to try to record something ("I took Brian and the guys down to do a folk song... I wanted to sing--anything," according to Al) at Hite Morgan's studio...
And then?
Murry calls Dorinda and asks her to "do something with him (Brian)... Audree and I are going to Mexico City"...
And then?
Al, Brian and the guys do in fact visit the Morgans (probably on September 13th... Dorinda said the "demos" were recorded "a couple of days" after the audition), who encourage the group to do something "original"...
And then?
Dennis suggests they write a song about surfing...
And then?
They do. The guys go home, and Brian and Mike finish writing the song ("Surfin'") in the den. (Brian had written the basic chords and melody in Fred Morgan's higb school music class)...
And then?
The guys take their "emergency food money" and (with the help of Alan's mom Virginia) rent instruments to be used to record demos at Hite Morgan's home studio on Mayberry Street on September 15th.
That's it?
Yes. Isn't that enough?
A VERY busy week. Yes indeed. But I believe that is just what happened.
Many of the most astute posters on this board will strongly disagree with me, I'm sure, but I now believe the Pendletones (Beach Boys) came together in just five days, starting on September 11, 1961.
Again, that's just my opinion.
By Mrs_dauber (Mrs_dauber) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:54 pm:
Phlip, I'm not doubting that classes were in session. From my experience, community colleges run classes almost constantly...our local school has classes for the entire summer, except for two weeks at the end of August. I'm just wondering if Al and/or Brian were possibly not students at the time, and were on campus for other reasons. They could have used the music room between the classes scheduled for that room, when it would be empty, as opposed to between their own classes. I don't recall if it was established already that they met in the music room more than once, which would throw off this theory a bit.
If only El Camino would spill the beans as much as Ferris did, we'd have more answers. Then again, I'd rather a school keep student information confidential to strangers! Ferris seemed to have told Brad everything short of Al's underwear size.
By Brad on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:58 pm:
Phlip,
There's simply no way that Brian and Al bumped into each other on the ECC campus on September 11. Under that scenario, The Beach Boys couldn't possibly have been prepared to cut their demo tape for Hite Morgan on Sept. 15! There's simply not enough time!
Let's look at your scenario:
9/11/61 - Brian and Al meet again on the campus of ECC.
9/12/61 - Brian and Al gather together some friends and acquaintances to sing in the Nurse's room at ECC. [Al, BBC documentary, 1974: "We got together the next day in the Nurse's Room."]
9/13/61 - Brian and Al get together with Mike, Carl and Dennis to sing at Brian's house. [Al, BBC documentary, 1974: "So we went over to Brian's the day after that and met with Mike and Dennis and Carl."]
9/14/61 - The once and future Beach Boys visit Hite Morgan to audition "Sloop John B" (or maybe it's "Rio Grande"), but are told they need original material.
9/15/61 - Acoustic demos of "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" are recorded by Hite Morgan in his home studio.
If we look strictly at "Surfin'," maybe it's possible. The assumption would have to be that they went home on the 14th, wrote "Surfin'" and came back the next day with it, sufficiently rehearsed to lay down a demo. Although I think that's ridiculously tight, it might be a workable scenario. But what about "Luau" and "Lavender"? Those weren't written by The Beach Boys; they were written by Bruce and Dorinda Morgan, respectively. And, realistically, there's no way professional songwriters like the Morgans would have given those songs to The Beach Boys unless they knew they were going to record them -- in other words, they wouldn't have given them to The Beach Boys until they heard the completed "Surfin'" on the 15th and judged it worthy of being recorded. So that means The Beach Boys couldn't have been ready to record "Luau" and "Lavender" until at least Sept. 16!
In fact, I think an assumption that they'd have been ready to record on Sept. 16 is quite a stretch. It's one thing to suppose that a brand new singing group, which had been together for only a matter of days, could perfect their performance of an original song in just 1-2 days. It's quite another to suppose that they could have perfected two previously-unheard compositions by others in just a day! That's absurd just on the face of it! Especially when you consider that they were performing the songs for the writers! Do you really think that Hite and Dorinda wouldn't have worked with the group for at least a session or two until they'd perfected "Luau" and "Lavender" to the Morgans' satisfaction?
You're way outside the bounds of believability on this. There's simply no way to shoehorn all the necessary events, beginning with Al's and Brian's meeting on the ECC campus through to the recording of the Morgan demos, into just five days. They just won't fit!
Also, it should be noted that Carl's story about taking the rented gear to the Morgan's for the demo session doesn't hold up. Listen to the demos! (They're on the DCC "Lost And Found" set.) The only instrumentation on the demos cut Sept. 15 is an acoustic guitar! No string bass, no drums, no electric guitar!
In his comments to Himes, Carl was merging different events together. The session he describes ("I played guitar, Alan played upright bass, and Brian played snare drum with a pencil.") wasn't the Sept. 15 demo session, but rather the actual recording session Oct. 3 at World Pacific Studios! So much for relying on what Carl said.
Oh ... and for the record, having heard the complete Sept. 15 demo tape, I can safely state that "Rio Grande" wasn't performed at the session. Only three songs were cut -- multiple takes in some cases, but only three songs!
Finally, I want to address your earlier contention that it's unlikely Alan could have gotten back from Michigan in time to enroll in the Summer session at ECC.
You wrote:
** The Jardines returned from Michigan after the end of the Spring semester at Ferris. They may not have left immediately. Maybe they visited family in Ohio first. They probably drove back. Donald and Virginia may have taken advantage of the occasion to spend some quality time with the kids (especially Al,who would soon be out of the house). So stops at the Petrified Forest, the Painted Desert, the Grand Canyon, and Louie's Lizard Farm would have been an irresistable MUST for any American family driving cross-country. Then they moved into a new house in Torrance. So I would doubt that Al got back in time to enroll at El Camino for the Summer Semester (June 21, right?). **
Your first erroneous assumption is that the Jardines returned to California at the end of the Spring semester at Ferris. Actually, the family (with the exception of Al) returned several months prior to that. I spoke today to the Human Resources Department at Ferris State and they provided employment dates for Donald C. Jardine. It turns out he began work March 1, 1960 (at the beginning of the Spring 1960 quarter) and left Ferris' employment on March 10, 1961 (at the end of the Winter 1960-61 quarter)! So the Jardines (except Al) weren't even in Michigan during the Spring 1961 quarter! They were back in California -- which is confirmed by the fact that a change was made in Al's permanent address in the school's records during the Spring quarter. Al, though, stayed in Michigan to complete the school year, and it's very likely that he didn't dawdle getting back to California (where his family was) in mid-June. Which would put him back in plenty of time to start ECC's Summer session on June 21.
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 03:40 pm:
"4. Were there any "dreary" days (weather-wise) in L. A. during August and September 1961?
REASON THIS IS A PROBLEM: Dorinda Morgan remembered the day the Pendletones (Beach Boys) came in for their very first audition as "a dreary September day in 1961.""
Just a thought... why do we think she's talking about the weather ? Here's the full quote:
"It was a dreary September afternoon in 1961. My husband Hite and I were in our office on Melrose Avenue in Hollywood. We were just about to call it a day when young Alan Jardine came in."
Maybe that's dreary as in 'crappy'.
By Brad on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:57 pm:
Hey, Andrew ...
Something else you might want to ask Gary ... Seeing that we now know Donald Jardine started at Ferris in March 1960, three months before Al graduated from Hawthorne High, does that mean Al was living with Gary at the time of his graduation? Or did his mom stay behind in Hawthorne with Al for several months, while her husband started work and found a house in Michigan?
Brad
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 05:33 pm:
If Donald Jardine left Ferris U on March 10, 1961.
Maybe Al came back to California with his parents for Spring break. Al may have gone to the El Camino campus to register for the Summer or Fall semester, or to see friends. He meets Brian while he's there. Then Al and Gary go to the Wilson's house and Audree suggests they go to the Morgan's. They take the Islanders demo tape to the Morgans (this would be early March 1961- it would also make it 6 months prior to Sept. 1961). They get the impression the Morgans aren't interested. Al goes back to Ferris to finish the Spring Semester. Al returns to LA after he completes his Freshman year at Ferris June 11, 1961.
By Susan on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 05:53 pm:
>4. Were there any "dreary" days (weather-wise) in L. A. during August and September 1961?
REASON THIS IS A PROBLEM: Dorinda Morgan remembered the day the Pendletones (Beach Boys) came in for their very first audition as "a dreary September day in 1961."
>Just a thought... why do we think she's talking about the weather ? <
I had the same thought, Andrew - what if the dreariness was Dorinda's perception of the day rather than the weather for the day? Or what if she's just erroneous in her rememberance?
By Brad on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 12:11 am:
Calsaga wrote:
** If Donald Jardine left Ferris U on March 10, 1961. Maybe Al came back to California with his parents for Spring break. **
Sorry, but Al just didn't have the time for such a trip. The final day of exams for the Winter quarter was Friday, March 10. First, it's probable that Mr. Jardine would have had to remain at least one more day to grade exams and turn in final grades for the quarter. Second, registration for the Spring quarter began the following Monday, March 13, and concluded on Wednesday, March 15, with classes starting on Thursday, March 16. So, assuming he registered as late as possible (on the 15th), Al had at most four days to make the trip to California with his family and then return!
As they were moving, I can't imagine the Jardines traveled to California by anything other than car. I mean, what were they going to do? Abandon their car(s) in Michigan? Doubtful. And there's no way to drive from Michigan to California, get there and have enough time to do anything, then fly back to Michigan, all in four days. So it seems impossible to factor in a trip for Al to California between quarters. It simply doesn't fit.
Brad
By Cam Mott on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:15 am:
I presume Al didn't have a car since he hitchhiked out and I'm not saying it's likely but it is possible with 3 or more drivers. According to Yahoo's driving directions the trip from Big Rapids to Torrance takes 45 hours of windshield time on Interstates that probably existed back then though there are a couple of Interstate by-passes that might not of. If Donald was one of those who liked to drive straight through and conditions were right he could do it all in even only 4 days it looks like.
By Jeffretro (Jeffretro) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:38 am:
"Between classes."
Seems to me this could mean "between semesters" (i.e. "between sessions of classes") as easily as between individual classes on any given day. I've heard "classes" referred to in this manner more than once.
If that were the case then Brian and Al could have bumped into each other on campus during August or early September. They could have been there registering for the fall semester or buying books at the student store. And football practice would likely have started by then.
Just a thought.
And now back to our regularly scheduled scholars.
Jeff
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:02 am:
"Seeing that we now know Donald Jardine started at Ferris in March 1960, three months before Al graduated from Hawthorne High, does that mean Al was living with Gary at the time of his graduation? Or did his mom stay behind in Hawthorne with Al for several months, while her husband started work and found a house in Michigan?"
Wierd - Gary told me this without my asking, but I didn't mention it as it didn't seem important. Alan lived with the Winfreys for August and part of September 1960, so extrapolating, it looks like Virginia moved to Michigan four months after Donald. I think it was a Tuesday.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:32 am:
Jeff:
I thought of that, too. That would explain the conflict. Except the story continues that after Brian and Al "bumped into each other," they first went to the music room, but were kicked out because a professor needed to use the room for a class. So it couldn't have been after August 2nd.
Another reason I postulated a September 11th "meeting" was that earlier on this thread, Gary Winfrey (in a message to AGD) says he remembered Al and Brian singing songs in the nurse's room at El Camino in EARLY SEPTEMBER 1961. Why mention a particular month if it wasn't necessary, especially if mentioning the month opens a can of worms that not mentioning one would not? (And Gary was supposedly one of the four singers that fateful day). I asked AGD about this, and maybe Gary (through AGD) will give an answer. This is a crucial point, because Gary was present the day Al "bumped into" Brian, and seems to be claiming it was in early September. Unless maybe singing in the ECC nurse's office got to be a regular thing. Or maybe Gary is "conflating" again.
As far as Brad's point that the Beach Boys (Pendletones) could not have worked up "Luau" and "Lavender" in one or two days, I STRONGLY (but respectfully) disagree, and Brad mentioned the very reason... Carl Wilson's conflated memory of the "renting of the instruments" while Murry and Audree were out of town.
As Brad himself said, the September 15th rehearsal was an acoustic performance without drums, bass, or piano. It sounds like it was just Carl (and/or Alan) on guitar. And the vocals on the three songs sound no better than one might expect from a church choir on Sunday, with two hours of rehearsal the previous Wednesday night.
Plus, "Lavender" (written by Dorinda Morgan) had been recorded by a local black doo-wop group called the Calvanes (they have a web site, BTW) and was released (on Hite Morgan's Deck label) in 1958. Given Murry Wilson's friendship with Hite Morgan, it is not inconceivable that Brian might have actually owned a copy of the record, and it may have been one of the tunes the boys had sung around the house. (Which is why--not knowing any better--Carl Wilson might have thought of it as a "Four Freshmen" song).
I disagree with Brad over dismissing the possibility that the audition and the rehearsal were a day or two apart. I played clarinet in my high school band, and although "perfected" performances would take time, I could sight-read a tune and play it through (without significant mistakes) in just a couple of hours (and I didn't take private lessons like Carl did). I am listening to the Pendletones' September 15th rehearsal right now, and the vocals were hardly what I would call "perfected." In fact, "sloppy" is a better word.
So I believe it is still possible that the Alan/Brian meeting occurred at El Camino on September 11th.
I will concede, however, that there is a major problem regarding the renting of the instruments and Al and Brian "bumping into each other" on September 11th... Here's why...
1. If Murry and Audree went to Mexico City over the Labor Day weekend (September 2-4), then the instruments would have been rented BEFORE Al and Brian met. Obviously, NO WAY that could be.
2. If Murry and Audree went to Mexico City around September 14-16, then the Pendletones rented instruments, but did not use them at the September 15th rehearsal session at the Morgan's home studio. This would not be that unlikely, because the group might have rented the instruments to practice "Surfin'" at home, but did not bring them to the reheasal session (perhaps becuase Hite told them to leave the bass and drums at home). And then perhaps the group rented the very same instruments (or still had them) two weeks later for use at the World Pacific session.
3. If Murry and Audree went to Mexico City the first weekend of October, then the instruments could have been rented for use at both the World Pacific session on October 3rd (a stand-up bass and a snare drum seem to be present, in addition to guitar) as well as concurrent band practice sessions before and/or after the recording session. If true, then Dorinda Morgan had the date of the Mexico City trip confused, because she associated the trip with the group's initial audition.
I just want to mention one more thing, something about conflated memory and the forming of urban legends.
By "conflated memory," I mean the natural tendency for people to combine and confuse events when remembering them years later, and by "urban legend" I mean the enhancement and then further perpetuation of a conflated recollection. This is how the "Bermuda Triangle Mystery" (which was successfully debunked in the book "The Bermuda Triangle Mystery--Solved," written by a talented reasearcher at good old Arizona State University) and the "Roswell Incident" got to be what they are today. People remember an event without reference to a document (diary, contract, etc), then combine it with a different (but similar) event, unintentionally (or sometimes intentionally) embellishing it a little bit to make it more interesting, and then perpetuate it by mass communication. I believe this may have happened to some extent with the Beach Boys, ESPECIALLY the "genesis" of the band. Dorinda Morgan, Carl Wilson, Brian Wilson, and (yes) Gary Winfrey all seem to suffer from this problem. That is why so many of the recollections seem to conflict. But even with conflated memory, there is almost always truth contained within. It's just mixed-up.
Interestingly, the one person involved who seems to retain a very clear memory of the period is none other than one Alan Charles Jardine. You have to have a good memory with obsessive tendencies to keep seemingly insignifiant events clear in your mind over a period of years. Al seems to fit that profile. His recollections (as recounted over the years) seem to be crystal clear.
Al needs to be interviewed, folks.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 10:04 am:
Damn right! I've said that all along! Al won't remember everything, especially dates, but show him what you guys have so far and maybe he can fill in some gaps or verify pro or con what happened during a specific timeframe.
By Briansong (Briansong) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 03:15 pm:
Possibly a meaningless question to throw into the mix..
But does anybody know, or care WHERE those instruments were rented from?
Place is probably long gone by now, wherever it was.
But then again...it COULD hold some clues.
Interesting thread...definitely with a life of its own.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:11 pm:
I think some of you guys are going way overboard in trying to shoehorn events into certain time periods!
Cam wrote:
** I'm not saying it's likely but it is possible with 3 or more drivers. According to Yahoo's driving directions the trip from Big Rapids to Torrance takes 45 hours of windshield time on Interstates that probably existed back then though there are a couple of Interstate by-passes that might not of. **
So let's say, conservatively, 48 hours for argument's sake.
** If Donald was one of those who liked to drive straight through and conditions were right he could do it all in even only 4 days it looks like. **
According to Ferris Institute's calender, even though the final day for exams was Friday, March 10, the Winter quarter is shown as officially ending at 6 p.m. on Saturday, March 11. I presume that Mr. Jardine would have had to be on hand at least some part of that day, so he couldn't have hit the road until probably mid-day.
Then, 48 hours on the road puts his family into Torrance mid-day Monday. Since Al has to be back to register for classes on Wednesday, March 15, he'd have had to fly back on Tuesday. Let's suppose he took a fairly late flight out; that leaves him about 24 hours in which to do as Calsaga suggested: Go to the El Camino campus and meet Brian, go by the Wilsons' house and talk to Audree, and then go see Hite Morgan and leave the Islanders' tape. I guess all that could have been done late Monday and in the first half of the day Tuesday, but does anybody really want to suggest that it likely did? C'mon! After 48 hours straight on the road, Al would have been just plain worn out! Also, if he's only got one day in town, I think it's more likely that he'd have spent the day hanging around with friends, not running around trying to find out who to place a demo tape with! It just stretches the bounds of believability!
Phlip wrote:
** As far as Brad's point that the Beach Boys (Pendletones) could not have worked up "Luau" and "Lavender" in one or two days, I STRONGLY (but respectfully) disagree, [...] I disagree with Brad over dismissing the possibility that the audition and the rehearsal were a day or two apart. **
Okay, let's suppose the proto-BBs (who'd only been singing together for 2-3 days) were able to adequately learn songs overnight. Look at how this would have to have played out:
9/11/61 - Brian and Al meet again on the campus of ECC.
9/12/61 - Brian and Al gather together some friends and acquaintances to sing in the Nurse's room at ECC. [Al, BBC documentary, 1974: "We got together the next day in the Nurse's Room."]
9/13/61 - Brian and Al get together with Mike, Carl and Dennis to sing at Brian's house. [Al, BBC documentary, 1974: "So we went over to Brian's the day after that and met with Mike and Dennis and Carl."]
9/14/61 - The Pendletons visit Hite Morgan to audition "Sloop John B" (or maybe it's "Rio Grande"), but are told they need original material. They go home and write/rehearse "Surfin'."
9/15/61 - The Pendletons return to audition "Surfin'" for Hite, and he says it could be a hit and he wants to record them. Realizing they need additional songs for a possible B-side, he gives them "Lavender" and "Luau" to learn. (Even if Brian already knew "Lavender" from the Calvanes' record, he wouldn't have known "Luau.") The Pendletons go home and learn/rehearse "Lavender" and "Luau."
9/16/61 - Acoustic demos of "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" are recorded by Hite Morgan in his home studio.
The only problem, though, is that the demos would have to take place a day later than they did. (And that's assuming that the Morgans didn't first want to hear how the Pendletons performed their two songs before deciding to record them.) I repeat: It just doesn't fit!
Let's remember, this is real life we're talking about. For the most part, people weren't running around trying to make things happen immediately. People weren't facing deadlines. Gary & Al waited six months or more for Hite to call back; why would The Pendletons think they needed to get back to him the very next day when he suggested they needed original material? And why wouldn't they have taken a couple of days to rehearse the material before going back in to record it? In real life, they would have.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 04:57 pm:
Mikie wrote:
Ask Al.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:32 pm:
** Ask Al. **
I think that's certainly the plan, but we don't want to be going back to Al again and again like AGD has with Gary Winfrey as new information turns up. The goal right now is to compile as much detailed information about that period as possible, then when we feel like we've got every bit of information we possibly can gather from every conceivable source, we'll ask Al.
We can't expect Al to be as patient with us as Gary has been. With somebody in Al's position, we'll probably only get one shot at questioning him in detail. We don't want to blow it by finding out later that there was a piece of information we didn't have that might have jogged his memory. This is called research. Only when it's completed will we question the primary subject. And it's not completed yet. Just today, I had an extensive discussion with the Assistant Director of Admissions and Records at El Camino College as to why they won't release some basic information about their students like other colleges do (and, sadly, they won't change their position). Also, my contact at the El Camino library has yet to finish her perusal of the 1960, 1961 and 1962 school yearbooks.
So be patient, Mikey, questions will be put to Al when the time is right. (It's easy to see why you're not a non-fiction writer! )
Brad
By Phlip (Phlip) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:19 pm:
This just in from NOAA-Oxnard (National Weather Service):
The only dates in August and September 1961 which had daylight hours that were unseasonably cool & overcast with rain (or threat of rain) were;
August: NONE
September: FOUR
September 16 (Saturday) - unseasonably cold with drizzle (.01 inches of rain).
September 20-22 (Friday-Sunday) - unseasonably cold and overcast with drizzle (.04 inches of rain) on Saturday (9/21).
So if Dorinda Morgan's recollection was correct, and "dreary" referred to weather (rather than her emotional state) when she stated "it was a dreary September afternoon in 1961... when Alan Jardine came in" (with Brian, Mike, Carl, and Dennis), then the ONLY dates possible are the ones listed above.
All of which post-date the 9-15-61 "rehearsal recordings" at Hite Morgan's home studio on Mayberry Street. It is possible (I guess) that the late afternoon of September 15th MAY have been cloudy (dreary?), what with a cold front moving in (and rain imminent the next day), so PERHAPS she conflated the events, and confused the "rehearsal session" of 9-15 with the initial audition sometime earlier.
Or...
Maybe the date written on the tape box from the rehearsal session was incorrect. Why? Could it be the date was written on the box days or weeks later, and the date was not remembered correctly?... It's possible. This was not, after all, some official "AFM contract." It was a tape box containing a rehearsal.
Or (as suggested by Susan and AGD)...
Maybe Dorinda was not referring to the weather when she used the word "dreary."
Brad, all I'm doing is trying to think "outside the box" a little bit. I'm not saying the "legend" (as you know it) is not true. I'm only questioning things, the way Al's attendance at "dental school in Michigan" never was (at least until a few days ago).
That being said, you're probably right about all of this, and I'm probably wrong... Time will tell...
By Phlip (Phlip) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:22 pm:
Correction on the days of the week that were September 20-22, 1961... Should be Wedenesday through Friday.
Sorry about that.
By Cam Mott on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:24 pm:
*Also, if he's only got one day in town, I think it's more likely that he'd have spent the day hanging around with friends, not running around trying to find out who to place a demo tape with! It just stretches the bounds of believability!*
I don't know what Al would have done when he was that age and I don't know how probable it is but it is believable in that it was more then possible unless I'm missing something. If anything the short time available would have narrowed Al's focus and streamlined his activities to mind. Isn't the point to determine the parameters rather then satisfy our own notions of probablity?
*Let's remember, this is real life we're talking about. For the most part, people weren't running around trying to make things happen immediately. People weren't facing deadlines. Gary & Al waited six months or more for Hite to call back; why would The Pendletons think they needed to get back to him the very next day when he suggested they needed original material? And why wouldn't they have taken a couple of days to rehearse the material before going back in to record it? In real life, they would have.*
As I remember me and my friends we had terrific energy and didn't let any grass grow under our feet if it was something we were excited by and wanted to go after.
*9/15/61 - The Pendletons return to audition "Surfin'" for Hite, and he says it could be a hit and he wants to record them. Realizing they need additional songs for a possible B-side, he gives them "Lavender" and "Luau" to learn. (Even if Brian already knew "Lavender" from the Calvanes' record, he wouldn't have known "Luau.") The Pendletons go home and learn/rehearse "Lavender" and "Luau."
9/16/61 - Acoustic demos of "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" are recorded by Hite Morgan in his home studio.
The only problem, though, is that the demos would have to take place a day later than they did. (And that's assuming that the Morgans didn't first want to hear how the Pendletons performed their two songs before deciding to record them.) I repeat: It just doesn't fit!*
Did the Boys ever usual "know" a song before they arrived at the studio to record? They did not rehearse the 2 songs in question at the recording session on the 15th? I don't have the early session out-takes, do they show that the Boys didn't rehearse at the studio on the earliest sessions as they seem to on later tapes? Or did I miss something, not being directly involved I tend to get lost.
By Brad on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 08:44 pm:
Cam, the tapes from the Sept. 15 demo session show that the Boys basically had the songs down pat before they started singing. There may well have been an untaped rehearsal prior to the recordings, but I still think it's quite unrealistic to assume that they would have walked in that day not knowing one or two of the songs at all and proceeded to rehearse them sufficiently from scratch to the point where they would be able to record them. That would have taken quite a few hours! Can you imagine Dennis staying put that long? I mean, this is the same guy who years later bolted the lead vocal session for "Sail On Sailor" halfway through the first run-through of the song because he HAD to go surfing!
Also, Sept. 15 was a Friday. It's likely most of the Boys had school earlier in the day. And let's not forget that the Morgans ran a business; it's doubtful that on a weekday they'd have been able to devote that large a chunk of time all at once. Far more likely is that the group would have been given the songs in advance so they could work on them in preparation for the demo session. And if they were given the songs even one day in advance, then there's simply no reasonable way to fit everything Phlip wants to into a 5-day period. Six days, maybe, in a very tight squeeze, but 5 just doesn't seem reasonable.
You know, this whole discussion would be moot if we could just find out Al's attendance dates at ECC. It's a shame the school doesn't have the same guidelines for the release of student information that other schools do. Hey, anybody know someone who works at ECC?
Brad
By Mikie (Mikie) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:34 pm:
Brad wrote:
"So be patient, Mikey(sp), questions will be put to Al when the time is right. (It's easy to see why you're not a non-fiction writer! )"
Hey, c'mon Brad. I don't know why you don't think I'd be a good non-fiction writer. :>) I don't subscribe to fiction. You know I'm a staunch supporter of the facts without the B.S. on this board. And if I'm wrong, I know you, AGD, Phlip, and others will jump in to correct me.
Anyway, I think it's neat to see you guys dig deep here and compare notes, just like the Candix thread awhile back. I'm sure you'll know when it's time to end the speculation and touch base with Al. 41 years is a long time to remember events in anyone's life, and I'm sure Mr. Jardine will need all the help he can get to stimulate his memory banks.
Cool. Carry on chaps and blokes!
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:28 pm:
Phlip, Cam, just want to make something crystal clear - your thinking out loud and speculations are a vital contribution to this thread, and anything Brad or I may say that contradicts your musings is merely our way of TOL. We're all heading towards the same goal, some by on the interstate, others by The Road Less Travelled. It's just that sometimes the obvious is the obvious, and listening to the tapes it's evident to me that some considerable rehersal has been put in, notably on "Lavender". Personal observation - since I resurrected my singing career, I've found that without rehersals, you soon loose it, and I'm talking about performing BB songs that I've known for decades and thaought I had down pat. Now, I'm no Brian Wilson (did I hear a cry of "Surely so !" ? ), but I think even he would need longer than the odd afternoon to teach the others - especially Dennis - their parts. I just don't believe that Denny came into the sutdio and sight-read the midle-eight to "Luau" on the spot. I'm with Brad on this (and remember, the Lost And Found tapes are heavily edited - even the "Lavender" demo is a composite).
By AGD (Agd) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:48 pm:
"With somebody in Al's position, we'll probably only get one shot at questioning him in detail."
Hopefully, later this year (taps side of nose, winks knowingly)...
"Also, my contact at the El Camino library has yet to finish her perusal of the 1960, 1961 and 1962 school yearbooks."
Brad, exactly what info are you seeing from these books ? Just wondering if Gary has them - as a part-time student, maybe, maybe not. BTW, he's sent me a scan of the 1957 HH B team football photo, a cropped version of which appears on p.21 of the 1985 edition of David Leaf's book - later today I'll put it up on the net if he's cool with that.
By Brad on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:39 am:
AGD wrote:
** remember, the Lost And Found tapes are heavily edited **
Wasn't somebody trying to put out a 2-CD set of the unedited tapes?
** "Also, my contact at the El Camino library has yet to finish her perusal of the 1960, 1961 and 1962 school yearbooks." Brad, exactly what info are you seeing from these books? **
Primarily, I was looking for confirmation as to when Al attended -- you know, a second source of information. If Al's not in the 1960 and 1961 yearbooks but in the 1962 book, that'll confirm what we think we know. It won't tell us when he started at ECC (which admittedly is the most burning question), but it will give us some documentary evidence that he was there at least part of the 1961-62 school year.
** Just wondering if Gary has them - as a part-time student, maybe, maybe not. **
Hey, it's worth asking! The worst that can happen is he can say "no."
I'd really like to know if Al's in the 1963 yearbook, but that one's missing from ECC's archive. That might help us figure out where Al was during the 1962-63 school year, when he'd dropped out of the BBs. Have you had a chance to ask Gary what Al was doing when they shared an apartment together in early 1963? Given that Gary attended ECC for 4 years, I full expect the answer to be that Alan was attending the school, too (for his third year), but it wouldn't surprise me if the answer were something else entirely.
Brad
By AGD (Agd) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 03:48 am:
"The worst that can happen is he can say "no.""
Hasn't happened yet* !
(* famous last words)
By Textus (Textus) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 06:27 am:
This might be a side issue, but it might help to build the whole timeline:
Are all concerned assuming that the confusion over the Islanders recording "Sloop John B" and an adaptation of Longfellow's "The Wreck of the Hesperus" assuming that it is really the latter? Here are some ideas I'd throw into the mix.
Don't have dates in front of me, and no for two straight nights I was so caught up in neighborhood task force over a car wash replacing a flower shop down the block that I haven't looked up the Whitcomb.
In late 1958, I think, the first Kingstons album got released, including a cover version of "John B Sails" or "The Wreck of the John B" or "Sloop John B." Song also recorded during this period by the Easy Riders and in 1950 as a Weavers B side.
The Kingston Trio begins a scrubbed, collegiate folk boom that isn't so much a folk boom as it is an unplugged cousin to rock'n'roll. I'm not going to get deeply into this one, but my point is that high school football players weren't deciding back in 1959-60 that they wanted to be Pete Seeger or Dock Boggs. They were, however, deciding they wanted to be jsut like three Hawaiian guys who decided to pretend they were Jamaican and get gigs in San Francisco.
Debut album chart history suggests that it was a major event through Al's junior year in high school. Possibly even longer.
Someone would have thought of "Hesperus" as something to adapt into a similar song as John B. I do not know about Al or public schools in 1959, but I do know that American Lit was a junior-year required class at Sooner High School in Bartlesville, OK, and that this was supposedly the norm going back for years. (The other high school flip-flopped English and American so that American was senior year, but they assumed some things demographically that would allow them to get away with that.) I keep thinking that "Hesperus" was really a junior-high text, eighth grade maybe. But that is because I know "Evangeline" was required eighth grade reading and that it had been so since God was a Shark.
Anyway, it is likely that someone hearing SJB for the first time would think of the Longfellow poem as a possible text that could be mounted into a song.
It is also highly believable that a transplanted Californian would quickly notice the lack of a recording industry in Michigan, and possibly be bursting at the seam wanting to pursue the Hesperus thing the minute he got back to the Promised Land.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 06:53 am:
"Wasn't somebody trying to put out a 2-CD set of the unedited tapes? "
Are we ever going to hear that? What's the status of the Wave set, may I ask?
By Mrs_dauber (Mrs_dauber) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 07:00 am:
Brad, have you considered contacting with someone at ECC who could act as a go-between, and obtain Al's and Brian's student history at ECC for you? Perhaps a history or music professor would be willing to help. It's a long shot, but it might be worth trying.
It will be interesting to know what info is contained in the yearbooks, but I wouldn't count on any lack of Al to tell any truths. Unless it's a small, close-knit school, college yearbooks aren't as intense as high school. The student population doesn't care as much about getting their photo taken for the yearbook. This is probably especially true for a community college, which would have a more transient population than a university.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 07:52 am:
From the Ken Sharp interview with Alan Jardine ("Goldmine, July 2000)...
ALAN: "We went in the studio quite early on with the intention of recording a couple of traditional folk songs. Brian had come up with this tune shortly before going down to the studio, this surfing idea. The surfing idea was actually Dennis' idea. Brian prepared this track bed called 'Surfin.' I played stand-up bass on it. My mother had to rent the equipment because the Wilsons had gone on vacation to Mexico and the food money was gone. So we had to go and beg, borrow and steal from my mother, who came up with 300 bucks. That was a lot of money in '61. That was a hell of a lot of money. She just told me recently that she borrowed that money or got a loan from the bank, which surprised me. But I never really questioned where she got the money from, I just thought she lent us some of her salary. But that probably would have been a month's salary. We cut 'Surfin'' real quickly. We did it all at one time. We sang and played. We just stood up in front of the microphone and basically played the song for Murry and the publisher and that's the one they liked. And we did Bruce Morgan's song. Hite Morgan's son, Bruce, wrote this song called 'Luau.' It was kind of a cute song.
Again, from the Geoffrey Himes interview with Carl Wilson (1982):
CARL: "In the fall of 1961, my dad and mom went down to Mexico City on a business trip. They left us with $80 for food, spending money and emergencies. As soon as they left, we all got into Brian's car and went down to this music store on Hawthorne Avenue and rented some instruments. Alan's mom rented us a big acoustic bass, an amplifier, a couple guitars. I already had a guitar, a Kay that my dad had got me in Los Angeles. Alan had wanted to start a folk group, so he had been in touch with my dad's publisher, Hite and Dorinda Morgan. So we took our rented instruments down to the Morgans' home studio where they made their demos. In one afternoon, we recorded four songs: a song by the Morgans' son Bruce, one of Alan's folk numbers, one of Brian's Four Freshmen tunes and a song that Brian and Mike had made up called "Surfin'." I played guitar, Alan played upright bass, and Brian played snare drum with a pencil. In fact, he took his shirt off and put it over the drum because it was too loud. Mike was on one microphone and everyone else was on another mic. We sounded so shitty at first; we were so shaky and lame. After all, I was just 14 and a sophomore in high school."
OK.
Here is a new scenario.
We'll call it "Brunch with the Beach Boys"
PHLIP: Put "The Beach Boys Lost & Found" into your CD player, and let's take a little journey back to September 1961...
September 11: 1st day of classes for the Fall Semester at El Camino CC. Also football practice is in full swing. Al bumps into Brian while walking across campus. They relocate to the music room to sing Four Freshmen songs, but are asked to leave when a professor needs the room for a class.
September 12: Brian & Al (with Gary Winfrey) move to the ECCC nurse's quarters, where they sing songs with an injured football player.
September 13-15: Brian and Al get together with Mike, Carl and Dennis to sing at Brian's house.
Saturday, September 16: Cold & overcast with light rain. The first "dreary" day in months. Murry Wilson calls Dorinda Morgan and requests she and Hite audition Brian & company. Murry mentions that he and Audree will soon be going on a trip to Mexico City. The Pendletones visit Hite Morgan to audition "Sloop John B" (or maybe it's "Rio Grande"), but are told they need original material. Dennis suggests they write a song about surfing. Brian and Mike finish the song ("Surfin'," based on a tune Brian had written for a music class at Hawthorne High) in Murry's den later that evening.
Monday, September 18: The Pendletones return to audition "Surfin'" for Hite, and he says it could be a hit and he wants to record them. Realizing they need additional songs for a possible B-side, he gives them "Luau" (written by son Bruce Morgan) to learn.
September 18-25: Pendletones rehearse "Surfin'" and "Luau." Brian also insists the guys practice "Lavender" (which Brian knows was written by Dorinda Morgan) to show-off their "Four Freshmen" sound. The group also practices a folk song written by Alan Jardine.
Monday, September 25: Acoustic demos of "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" are recorded by Hite Morgan in his home studio. Plans are made for a recording date in the near future.
Saturday, September 30: While Murry and Audree are in Mexico City, group rents a bass fiddle for Al to use at the upcoming recording session at World Pacific. With the Wilson kids' food money exhausted and Audree and Murry still not back from Mexico, Virginia Jardine (Al's mom) supplies the $300 needed for the rental fee. Murry returns home and hears the band play "Surfin'" and "Luau."
Tuesday, October 3: Hite Morgan records the Pendletones at World Pacific.
AUDIENCE: WHOA! WAIT JUST A MINUTE! This whole scenario is based upon one critical problem... the tape box containing the recording of the Pendletones rehearsal at the Morgan's home studio on Mayberry Street is labeled September 15, 1961!
PHLIP: I'm not finished yet.
Months or perhaps years later, someone (Hite, Bruce, who knows?) discovers the box containing the rehearsal tape. It has no date on it. Perhaps it has no other info either.
Someone asks Dorinda Morgan, "Hey, this stuff is priceless history! When was it recorded?"
DORINDA: "Uh, well, it would have been sometime before the first session at World Pacific."
SOMEONE: "But, what date? August, September???"
DORINDA: "Probably sometime in the middle of September. I don't remember the exact date."
SOMEONE: "Well, September 15 is half way between the 1st and the 30th, so that sounds good. September 15 it is!"
And a good morning to all!
By Cam Mott on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 08:40 am:
Is there a reason we are not considering that Al and Brian may have met on campus on the 10th or earlier during enrollment or some such?
Aren't Al and Carl both saying in that interview that the Morgan songs and Surfin' were all recorded at the Sept 15 demo session?
Is a schedule of Mr. Jardine's classes available still? Seems like a possibility that if his finals were earlier in the week and his grades were turned in, he might have left before the 11th by a day or few or even more.
I get confused.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:03 am:
Cam: The story goes that Al and Brian were kicked out of the music room because a professor needed to use the room for a class. If true, it must have been either before the end of the Summer Semester (August 2nd) or after the start of the Fall Semester (September 11th). And since an injured football player (a fullback, supposedly injured in a scrimmage) was involved, that would have to put it after mid-August (college football teams do not--and did not--begin Fall Practice until sometime in August, usually a month before the first game... and football teams in 1961 did not play their first game as early as they do these days...).
It seems as though both Al and Carl were saying that the instruments were rented for the recording session where a bass fiddle was used, the one where Brian played a snare drum with his fingertips (like a bongo), and that would HAVE to be the October 3rd session at World Pacific. As Brad mentioned, the earlier recorded "rehearsal" at Hite Morgan's home studio (allegedly on September 15th) has just an acoustic guitar (presumably Carl or Al), and no other instruments. So if my hunch is correct, Murry and Audree were in Mexico at the END of September, NOT over the Labor Day weekend.
Of course, I could be wrong.
By AGD (Agd) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:08 am:
"September 18-25: Pendletones rehearse "Surfin'" and "Luau." Brian also insists the guys practice "Lavender" (which Brian knows was written by Dorinda Morgan) to show-off their "Four Freshmen" sound. The group also practices a folk song written by Alan Jardine."
Can't buy that they practised a folk song then didn't do it. Likewise not indexing and dating a tape box - that'd be akin to not asking Brian's phone number or address. Bad business practise. Plus you're still leaning on Carl's recollection which has been proven to be inaccurate. I'm not that sure Alan's stands up too well to close scrutiny either - let's strap it to the table and get the scapels out. Nurse - the screens !! And page Dr. Elliott - this could get messy.
"ALAN: "We went in the studio quite early on with the intention of recording a couple of traditional folk songs. Brian had come up with this tune shortly before going down to the studio, this surfing idea. The surfing idea was actually Dennis' idea."
Problem #1 - according to all the most reliable reports, the first Brian knew about "Surfin'" was when Dennis told the Morgans that Brian & Mike had written a song on that subject during the session.
"Brian prepared this track bed called 'Surfin.' I played stand-up bass on it. My mother had to rent the equipment because the Wilsons had gone on vacation to Mexico and the food money was gone."
The more I think of it, the more I doubt the whole food money story. Murry and Audree went away for three days, tops. The commonly quoted sum is $300, with a variance of $80 to $800. Assuming that $80 is correct, that's just under $27 a day for three kids; if the $300 is right, that $33.33 a day each !!! Did Murry and Audree take all the food in the house to Mexico with them ? I'm not sure how much shakes, fries & burgers cost back then, but somehow I doubt it was $4.50 - hell, it's not much more than that at Arby's in Delaware today ! To take this further, just what did instrument rental cost back then ? $80-$300 for a weekend ? What did they (allegedly) rent ? A bass, two guitars and an amp. Why no drums ? Why guitars when Carl & Alan had their own already ? I like better the story that with the Wilsons away the band had a party that kept the block awake all night - now that would have taken some financing ! One more thing - I can handle Murry & Audree leaving the guys for a long weekend during vacation time, but during term time ? Not plausible.
So we had to go and beg, borrow and steal from my mother, who came up with 300 bucks. That was a lot of money in '61. That was a hell of a lot of money. She just told me recently that she borrowed that money or got a loan from the bank, which surprised me. But I never really questioned where she got the money from, I just thought she lent us some of her salary. But that probably would have been a month's salary. We cut 'Surfin'' real quickly. We did it all at one time. We sang and played. We just stood up in front of the microphone and basically played the song for Murry and the publisher and that's the one they liked."
Problem #2 - Murry wasn't present at either the audition or the "Surfin'/Luau" session.
Problem #3 - from Alan's comment "that's the one they liked", it's obvious that he's referring to the audition session, and as Brad has pointed out, the audition tapes reveal a complete lack of stand-up bass.
"And we did Bruce Morgan's song. Hite Morgan's son, Bruce, wrote this song called 'Luau.' It was kind of a cute song."
And one final problem, from Dorinda's account - she said that when Murry and Audree returned from Mexico, "Surfin'" was on the hit list at Music City which, if true, would place the Mexico weekend sometime in early-to-mid December.
OK, and a final, final problem:
"Months or perhaps years later, someone (Hite, Bruce, who knows?) discovers the box containing the rehearsal tape. It has no date on it. Perhaps it has no other info either."
Actually, it did, and does - it's marked "Pendletones Surfing Song", indicating that it was annotated late November 1961, at the very latest.
By AGD (Agd) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:35 am:
The "In The Beginning..." page has just been updated to include the 1957 HH football photo. Enjoy.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 09:57 am:
AGD: I understand your questions. Here we go...
* I think it's possible they practiced a folk song, but then some of the guys (particularly Brian, who apparently HATED folk music) decided to abandon the song, to not go any further with it. In that same "Goldmine" interview, Alan refers to some song about "islands" (I can't remember the title) that he wrote back then that he always liked. There's always "Rio Grande" or "The Wreck of the Hesperus," too.
BRIAN: "Al wanted it to be a folk group."
Since the band did NOT in fact become a folk group, obviously somone was opposed to the idea. Possibly Al's folk song was, uh, politely junked before the session.
* Regarding "Surfin'," it seems possible that Al didn't know about it right away. Brian "came up with the tune" could mean Brian had the music but no lyrics when they went to the audition. (Brian has a tendency to recycle tunes--why not one from high school music class?). Brian and Mike supposedly "finished" the song (with lyrics, bomps and dips) after the audition, and if Al had been there, I would think he might have been more involved with it. Maybe he had to go home for some reason. It happened to Carl at the "God Only Knows" session!
* As far as the money is concerned, $80 might have been the "emegency" money Murry left with Brian... after the balance of that was used up, they had to look to Mrs. Jardine to pay the rest of the bill. (Maybe the $300 was a REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT on the fiddle).
* As for "Surfin'" being "the one they liked," that could mean Murry and Hite decided, after listening to both finished tracks, that "Surfin'" would be the "A" side.
* If the tape box was annotated even only two months after the session, the EXACT date in September (two months earlier) might have been forgotten, so that September 15 would have been a "guess-timate." Maybe something happened to the original box. Maybe somebody sat on it while the tape was playing. Maybe their dog ate it. AFM contracts are sometimes backfilled; why not a box? There's also always the possibility that some sly person wrote "Pendletones Surfing Song" on the box YEARS later to make the box (not the tape, just the box) appear more contemporaneous than it really was. Sometimes people do odd things that are difficuilt to understand. While we're at it, maybe we can have the box and the writing on the box carbon-dated.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:02 am:
Required viewing for all posters on this thread: "Twelve Angry Men" (the film starring Henry Fonda, E. G. Marshall, Jack Warden, Martin Balsam, et al).
By Textus (Textus) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:17 am:
There are all sorrts of reasons Al and Brian might have been on campus in August, and one good reason a music teacher would have kicked them out of a piano room -- private lessons.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:54 am:
Steve: Sure. Private lessons makes sense. Except I just don't believe Al would refer to someone else's private lessons as "between classes."
I also don't believe Alan meant "between semesters" when he said they went into the music room "between classes." "Between terms" could mean "between semesters." But "between classes" does not. Maybe in high school it might. But not in a commuter community college, where "class" (Freshmen class, Senior Class, etc) doesn't mean anything.
To me, when Al said they went into the music room "between classes," he meant between his and Brian's respective regularly scheduled classes on a given school day during a regular semester.
IMHO.
By AGD (Agd) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:32 am:
"Maybe something happened to the original box. Maybe somebody sat on it while the tape was playing. Maybe their dog ate it. AFM contracts are sometimes backfilled; why not a box? There's also always the possibility that some sly person wrote "Pendletones Surfing Song" on the box YEARS later to make the box (not the tape, just the box) appear more contemporaneous than it really was. Sometimes people do odd things that are difficuilt to understand. While we're at it, maybe we can have the box and the writing on the box carbon-dated."
Phlip, and I'm saying this with all due respect... have you ever hear the phrase "grasping at straws ?"
By Textus (Textus) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:49 am:
Wasn't the Bay of Pigs around this time?
Yours for a classless society,
Conspiracy buff Steve
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:49 am:
Gee, nice guy AGD!
By on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 12:52 pm:
All this , just cause Al happened to be a little short . Should've dedicated 'At My Window' to Gary .
By Mikie (Mikie) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 01:02 pm:
Bay Of Pigs. Cuber. CIA involvement.
Conspiracy buff? Bull pucky.
'X', Candix, Safari, Randy. Hite Morgan got 'em off the ground. Murry got 'em higher off the ground with Capitol thanks to Hite's recordings.
Responsible for the whole shebang? Brian Douglas Wilson.
"No Shit Sherlock" Mikie
By Brad on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 01:08 pm:
AGD wrote:
** Phlip, and I'm saying this with all due respect... have you ever hear the phrase "grasping at straws ?" **
Amen!
There is NO indication that the box containing the tape of the Pendletons' demo session wasn't dated at the time it was recorded. The tape was stuck away for years, not with a bunch of other tapes Hite Morgan made, but with various personal keepsakes. It wasn't found until 1990. The writing on the box has been identified as Hite Morgan's and it seems to be as old as box. Certainly, the date on the box (9/15/61) appears to have been written at the same time as the legend on the box ("Pendletons Surfing Song") -- the writing is in the same handwriting, done with the same pen, with the same apparent degree of aging. While it's theoretically possible that the box might have been stuck aside initially unlabeled, it's not very likely. Hite Morgan was in the music business. Making tapes was what he did. If anybody is going to understand the need to properly label tapes and label them at the time they're made, it's going to be someone like Hite, who ran a demo studio where all kinds of people would wander in to make tapes.
I mean, if we're going to question whether the tape was misdated, then maybe we need to question whether El Camino College's records as to whether the reported start date of their Fall 1961 semester is correct -- it could have been a typesetting mistake in the catalog from that year, you know. Or maybe we should be questioning whether the date on the coach's memo for starting football practice that year was correct -- a typo might have made it 7/5/61 instead of 9/5/61, which could explain why football practice started mid-summer!
This really is getting quite ABSURD! The date on the tape is 9/15/61. That's a given; quit trying to reason how it could be wrong. By the same kind of reasoning, you can argue against accepting just about any known fact. Accept the date and move on!
A couple of other points:
(1) I know what has been written elsewhere, but the actual notation on the 9/15/61 tape box says "Pendletons," not "Pendletones." Which makes sense -- they took their group name from the shirt, which was a Pendleton, not a Pendletone.
(2) Re: FIRST WAVE. I'm hoping to have some definite news within the next 30-60 days. Right now, there are motions before the court right now that could decide the entire case. (For various legal reasons, I won't say anymore, so don't ask.)
(3) Mrs. Dauber, given ECC's strict rules about access to student information, I honestly don't think even a professor at the college could get information about a student from 40 years ago out of the Admissions & Records Department.
(4) Cam asked, "Aren't Al and Carl both saying in that interview that the Morgan songs and Surfin' were all recorded at the Sept 15 demo session?" Actually, given the details they reveal about the session (instruments, etc.), it's obvious they're talking about the actual Oct. 3 recording session, not the earlier demo session. From everything that's been said over the years, it's obvious that everybody involved completely FORGOT about the demo session even taking place -- which seriously calls into doubt all of their recollections.
(5) Cam also asked, "Is a schedule of Mr. Jardine's classes available still? Seems like a possibility that if his finals were earlier in the week and his grades were turned in, he might have left before the 11th by a day or few or even more." Unfortunately, that kind of detailed data no longer seems to exist and I'm not too surprised. What would be the rationale for holding onto a former professor's class schedule for 40 years after he's gone? As to the possiblity that his final exams were finished earlier in the week, it couldn't have been much earlier. The final exam period was only three days long -- March 8 to 10. If Mr. Jardine taught more than one class that quarter (which is a safe bet), then it's doubtful he'd have been able to get all his exams scheduled the first day. At best, it's possible he gained a day or maybe part of a day. But you also have to suppose that Al managed to get all of his exams done in the exact same period of time and that he didn't have any scheduled on the last day of exams. And he surely didn't take just one or two classes! So I think it's a pretty big stretch to suppose the entire Jardine family got away from Ferris early. Even if they did, by maybe a day, I don't think that a single day would really have made a big difference. I still think there wouldn't have been enough time for Al to have done everything that's been proposed for him during that Spring break. Plus, let's be real -- to try and shoehorn things in, you have to asssume a cross-country trip that includes no stops for food or to use the bathroom! That's simply not realistic! Add any reasonable amount of time in for meals and bathroom breaks, and you eat up a considerable portion of any time that might have been gained by the family leaving a day early. I think what Andrew said about Phlip applies to you here, too -- "grasping at straws."
(6) Phlip wrote, "The story goes that Al and Brian were kicked out of the music room because a professor needed to use the room for a class. [...] And since an injured football player (a fullback, supposedly injured in a scrimmage) was involved." Okay, I'm calling you on this, Phlip! Where are you getting all these details, other than from Brian's "autobiography," which has been fairly discredited as a reliable source? Please cite some interview that Brian or Al has given that provides such information. Because as far as I know, the ONLY place such detail has appeared is in "WIBN." Brian had been interviewed about the beginnings of The Beach Boys dozens of time previous to the writing of his book. And there's no question his head was clearer and he was more accurate in the years before he was under Landy's care. So, if he didn't mention such details in some earlier interview, the only reasonable conclusion has to be that they're just fanciful inventions by Todd Gold to make a better story and can't be relied on. Sources please.
Brad
By Brad on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 01:11 pm:
Mikie wrote:
** Responsible for the whole shebang? Brian Douglas Wilson. **
Agreed, although I think you have to credit Al for his role in getting the group in front of somebody in the music business. Once he did, though, there's no question -- it was all Brian!
Brad
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 04:24 pm:
Brad: The information regarding the football player being involved was from Brian Wilson's autobiography. I cited it that way earlier in this thread. My opinion is that the autobiography's inaccuracies comes from its tone and shading more than from the recollections of Brian Wilson. But I know Brian's memory is not good, as is obvious from when he is arguing with Mike Love in the bus about where "Salt Lake City" was written. Brian (through Todd Gold) adding the part about the football player being present was an unnecessay detail that makes is sound more true than perhaps it really is.
The only reason I questioned the tape box information is that while it looks OK to you, it does conflict with A LOT of the other parts of an alternate hypothesis (which, as I said, is probably wrong).
Once you change the date on the box, most ALL of the other quotes from participants do not conflict the way they do with the tape box having its current information.
It's kind of like if one thing causes a lot of things to be wrong, then maybe the one thing that does that need to be reexamined.
I've never seen the tape box. I'm sure you have. I know you rely a lot on physical evidence (as well as personal testimony) for your research. That is good. But errors can (and do) occur in records. An error in a college record is a lot less likely to occur, however, because someone is double and triple checking the info for accuracy. Not so with what is written on a box hidden away in a closet.
Again, I'm sure you're right.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 07:39 pm:
Make that arguing with Mike about where "Fun, Fun, Fun" (not "Salt Lake City") was recorded... Salt Lake City or Australia...
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 12:47 am:
As Robin Williams was wont to say, "heavy sigh": Gary doesn't have any El Camino yearbooks. However, in a timeline Gary sent me for Alan, he doesn't list him as attending ECC after June 1962, and the fact that he moved to an apartment with Gary in January 1963 (and remember, Gary was working as well), coupled with the 'paycheck' comment in regard to the $105 loan in August 1962 would appear to indicate that he was in some form of full-time employment. Whoever said 'dental hygenist' could be right. Also, FWIW, and with a 'don't quote me' rider, Gary thinks the song they sang in the nurses room was "Sloop John B".
Finally, the music shop where the instruments were rented was on Hawthorne Blvd., according to Carl.
By Cam Mott on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:59 am:
Re. straw grasping: I can't speak for Phlip, but I'm not trying to fit anything into any box, myself I'm just trying to explore the possibilities and kind of getting in the way doing it I suppose.
Re. March trip: Good point, stops would have added probably at least 6 to 8 hours or more to the drive time probably making it even less likely but still not impossible.
Re. football player in the nurse's office: I agree both that there is Brian contributed content in WIBN and that any content in the autobio should be handled with scepticism. I guess I agree that that football player detail shouldn't narrow the time frame down to after football practice season.
Re. demo session: I don't know if they have all forgotten it or whether they just don't regard it as their first reall recording session.
FWIW: I've got a Feb. 1966 issue of Tiger Beat magazine with the feature article: "My Brothers: the Beach Boys" by Carl Wilson.
Carl claims that Dennis had the idea that they become a group first but nothing came of it. Later Dennis and Mike returned from a fishing trip on fire with the idea again and this time "their excitement sparked a fire in Brian's brain and soon he was pounding his piano and working on lyrics and tunes with frenzy". Including Denny's "surfing patter which Brian wove into song lyrics. Then the five of us, Al included, began practicing vocal harmonies every chance we had. Mostly we sang Coasters songs and Freshman arrangements as Brian was high on their style of vocalizing.
It's a laugh to recall those days because we were so rank and we thought we were already good enough to record. We pooled our savings to buy instruments and, in October-November, 1961, we began seriously singing and playing as a group. Then Brian felt we were ready for a second try. He'd written "Surfin'" which we all believed had hit potential.
Our first recording session was held in a movie dubbing studio. Not one of us knew an instrument well. Mike had been learning the saxophone but we wouldn't let him play it on record because it didn't fit into our sound. I played basic chords on the guitar. Al Jardine thrummed bass. Brian took off his shirt, laid it across the drum and beat it with his hand while we all sang into one microphone.
And that's how "Surfin'" was born."
Re. weather:
There was rain in northern Orange Co. around October 9 and 11 according to UofC records. Could Dorinda also be remembering the October 8 session as the "dreary day in September"?
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:35 am:
Which just goes to show that Carl was as reliable in 1966 as he was in 1983.
By Jeffretro (Jeffretro) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:57 am:
I wouldn't necessarily use the weather as an accurate indicator of date, because even on days that ultimate are sunny in Los Angeles it's cloudy early in the day due to a marine layer of clouds pushing onshore overnight. How far inland the marine layer extends can vary wildly - sometimes it's confined to the immediate coastal areas and sometimes it can push into the inland valleys. It very often extends inland as far as Hollywood. As soon as the sun comes up the clouds start burning off; how long it takes to do so depends on the thickness of the marine layer and the time of year - which will determine the relative intensity of the sun. It can range anywhere from 8:00-9:00 in the morning to not clearing up at all that day.
This is a very common and year-round phenomenon in Los Angeles, and it's completely independent of any weather systems moving through the area. So it's possible for a day officially logged as "Sunny" to have been "dreary" in the morning or early afternoon.
For example right now as I look out the window we have marine layer conditions in the San Fernando Valley, which is farther inland than Hollywood. And in fact it is fairly dreary outside right now. And checking www.weather.com for a Hollywood Zip Code (I chose 90028 because I knew it offhand), it indeed also shows currently cloudy. But the forecast for the day for that Zip Code is AM Clouds PM Sunny (and here in Van Nuys the forecast is Partly Sunny).
So it's very possible for Dorinda Morgan's comment of a dreary day to also have been - ultimately - a sunny day. And because of that I wouldn't use the weather reports as gospel.
Sorry to complicate things even further!
Jeff
By Jeffretro (Jeffretro) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:03 am:
Oh, and I stand by my assertion that "between classes" could mean "between semesters," because I personally have heard it used in a similar context - several times over the years in fact.
Another reason why the music room may have been needed during the pre-semester period would be for the marching band. If El Camino had one (Brad - you should ask if they do), they would most likely have played at the football games and therefore would have to start rehearsing - like the football team practicing - well before classes started in time to be ready for the first game.
Jeff
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 07:28 am:
I agree with Jeff on both counts. I've heard "classes" as a synonym for "semesters" most of my life. It tends to refer to the weeks prior to "finals week," but still works fine.
Is the Carl "article" above the entire text? is there any reason it can't be copied into the writings section?
Ditto the thing about overcast portions of days. If SoCal is anything like the West Coast of Florida, one can have an impression of a day based on an hour that has nothing to do with the reality of the day.
I brought in Whitcomb. More later.
By Lonnie (Lonnie) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 08:33 am:
....dude still owes me 17 bucks!!
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:30 am:
Jeff: You're not "complicating" anything. And (hopefully) neither am I.
Speaking just for myself, all I was doing was offering something to think about before knee-jerk accepting the official "Beach Boys Legend" or the "party line." The People need to "question authority." It's good for the experts to be challenged and forced to defend their long-held beliefs, and it's especially a good thing for the sake of the truth.
The bottom line is, we don't know what Dorinda Morgan meant by "dreary." Unless one of us can communicate with the dead (and given the talents of some of our posters here, I am not ruling this out), this will remain a mystery forever. Likewise regarding the date on the tape box.
However, one of our expert journalists (Brad, AGD, Steve Webb, Alan Boyd, Jon Stebbins) can hopefully find out from Al Jardine when the Islanders played "The Wreck of the Hesperus" for Hite Morgan, AND if Al came back to L. A. anytime while he was a student at Ferris Institute, AND when exactly he returned to L. A. from Michigan, AND during which semester Al "bumped into" Brian at El Camino, AND if it was "between semesters" (or "between classes," as some of us would say), AND when the instruments (including the bass fiddle) were rented, AND when Murry & Audree went to Mexico City, AND what he was doing between the time he left the Beach Boys (around February 1962) and his return to the group in June 1963.
I know Brad relies a lot on physical historical artifacts (AFM contracts, tape boxes, etc), and that's fine, so long as there is good reason to believe the document was not "backfilled," OR that the document was double-checked by a second party at the time of its creation or soon afterward. This would certainly be the case for school records and school catalogues, most AFM contracts and airline tickets, credit card records and bank loans, even master recording tapes.
But a handwritten date on a box containing a rehearsal tape (NOT a master) that is so irrelevant that is is stored in somebody's closet does not carry with it the same veracity as a college catalogue or airline ticket or credit card record or bank loan or even a tape master. The writing on the tape box was (presumably) not double-checked for accuracy by a second party, because it would have appeared to have had little importance or significance at the time.
What would make this issue more certain is if there is anything actually ON THE TAPE (the one labeled September 15th) that ties it to that date... such as Hite Morgan stating the date at the beginning, or studio chatter that refers to some contemporaneous event, etc.
If a "professional" law enforcement officer can write the wrong DR # and date on a box containing evidence from a homicide (and believe or not, this did actually happen... a police property officer forgot to do it at the time the evidence was placed in the box, and then wrote the DR # and date "from memory" a couple of weeks later), then a "professional" producer like Hite Morgan COULD have written the wrong date on a tape box a month or two later, IF he had neglected to do so at the time of the rehearsal, AND if it was just a "rehearsal" tape. People DO make mistakes (conceivably, even Hite Morgan...), especially with a box containing a tape that within a very few days or weeks would become a major irrelevancy.
Again, I am NOT saying the long-held conventionally-accepted timeline is wrong. I am merely questioning the certainty of this particular item (the date on the tape box). I am NOT questioning all documents or artifacts. Just the one that (probably) lacked contemporaneous review by a second party, could have been backfilled, and that (standing alone) conflicts with many of the previously-stated recollections of the principles involved.
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:39 am:
Not wanting to cross-pollinate threads, but reading over the last five years Brad's accounts of what he has found among documentation is part of why I have gotten more militant about the dealth penalty. Eyewitnesses are really mainly I-witnessed's (lame attempt at the pun-ditry of Generalissimo Geno.) They help illuminate fact but they are a poor means for establishing fact.
If the tape box fits, does it matter where it sits?
Steve
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:41 am:
*Which just goes to show that Carl was as reliable in 1966 as he was in 1983.*
I'm not sure exactly what you mean but regarding the "first recording session", it seems pretty clear to me that the Beach Boys consider the October date to be their first recording session and do not consider the Sept. demo session to be. I have another article from 1966 in which Mike's quotes refer to the what must be the October session, with the drum and the shirt, as their first recording date for "Surfin'". I'm thinking they aren't confused or being inaccurate but just are reflecting their view that the demo session wasn't what they consider their first "recording session. Maybe I'm wrong.
Re. weather: Dorinda may have meant mentally dreary and it may have been dreary weatherwise on days or parts of days that aren't reflected in the record but a day recorded as having rain or clouds or thunderstorm does certainly mean a dreary day and coincidentally some of those dreary days fall around the October session. If the Boys do indeed feel that that session is their first "real" session then whose to say Dorinda might not feel the same.
It seems like a real possibility that the Boys aren't referring to the demo session we are trying make out they are in their retelling of the tale.
Oh yeah, $80 is the inflation adjusted equivalent about $460 today and $300 is the roughly the equivalent of $1725. Also in that picture where two of the Boys are pretending to eat a sub sandwich advertisement, the sandwiches were 65 cents.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:45 am:
AGD: Did Gary Winfrey ever explain to you why it is he remembers Al and Brian singing in the nurse's office in SEPTEMBER 1961?
I can understand that he remembers the event as occurring, but what ties it (in his memory) to that particular month and year?
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:45 am:
I don't totally trust the math conversion of the cpi to dollars. See Gregory McDonald's second Flynn novel about the worth of things. Can't remember the name. Point his wife made was that a lot of things go up in price and you don't even think about it because they aren't necessary, just things that make life kind of fun. Other things drop in price either because the technology changes or because the market grows to the point that the demand curve has to shift. See televisions. I just paid half of what I paid in 1981 for a color TV, for instance.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:22 am:
Steve: We can agree on one thing. I-witness testimony is the worst evidence. Especially when it involves a stranger identifying another stranger as the suspect in a crime. There are people on death row and serving long prison sentences just because some well-meaning citizen points at a defendant in open court and says "Yes, sir, that's the guy who did it!"
And a witness identifying a friend or acquaintance can be doing it to "get even," or to "save their own skin" (like by getting a "reduced sentence"); same goes for one family member identifying another.
As far as remembering what happened 40 years ago, (for me) that would be impossible, especially as far as sequence is concerned. But that's because I was only seven at the time. Memory becomes more conflated the further back you go in your childhood. HOWEVER... I can clearly remember the first time I drove into Phoenix 25 years ago! I can remember the day of the week (and from the perpetual calendar, I know the date), the route I took, what kind of car I was driving, the weather conditions, the first thing I did when I arrived, who I met and in what order, etc. It is still VERY clear, and not because I think about all the time, either (because I don't). And the more time I take to think about it, the more details emerge. It's like reading Mikie's recollection of his visit to Brian Wilson's house in 1976, or Bungalow Bill's memory of meeting the Beach Boys 30 years ago. Both are very specific, with a lot of detail.
Which brings me to something called "talking out of turn"... "Talking out of turn" is when somebody provides a detail to a memory of an event that is not necessary to telling the story. Like Dorinda Morgan describing the day as "dreary," or Brian Wilson remembering that an injured football player was present in the nurse's office, or Alan Jardine remembering that it was "between classes," or Gary Winfrey remembering that Al and Brian sang together in the nurse's office in "SEPTEMBER 1961." These are extra details that are not necessary to telling the story. They could have been left out. But the fact that they are added to the retelling means either
1. That's how it really happened;
2. The person is intentionally embellishing the story. (Then you have to ask, "Why?");
3. The person is conflating two or more memories, either confusing them or melding them into one event. (The question here would be, how memorable was the event to that person, or did something else happen that is directly associated with the event that IS memorable).
But physical evidence can be questioned, as well. As I said in an earlier post today, other than intentional forgery or fraud, most artifacts and documents can be reliable IF there was a contemporaneous double-check (review) involved, or if the chance to "tamper" with it later to add a previous omission is not possible. Such is not the case with the September 15th tape box.
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:09 am:
I think we can put aside all questioning of the September 15th date. You want something more than just a handwritten date on a tape box, Phlip? I've got something for you!
I have a copy of a "Standard Songwriter's Contract" between Guild Music Co. and "MIchael Love and Brian Wilson" for the song "Surfin'," and it's dated September 15, 1961! It's signed by Mike, Brian, Murry (as Brian's legal guardian) and Hite Morgan (on behalf of Guild Music).
Given the practices of the day, it probably was signed immediately prior to the demo session, so that Morgan had the publishing rights to the song before he put it on tape for the first time.
So that's TWO "hard" sources (not recollections or speculations) we have for the date of Sept. 15, 1961, and one of them is a legal document. Can we move on to something else now?
Brad
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:16 am:
Now we're at least dealing with reliable sources. Someone go over to the blue board and ask Brian about that date....
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:28 am:
Re: Cam's quotes from the Feb. 1966 issue of Tiger Beat magazine, in which Carl reminisced about how "Surfin'" came to be
Factor this in ...
From another 1966 article (I don't know where it originally appeared; it's reprinted on pages 72-72 of Dom Priore's "Look! Listen! Vibrate! Smile!"):
"Brian recalled the song: 'Mike (Love) and I wrote it because surfing was becoming a big craze and someone in school suggested a song about the sport.'"
SOMEONE IN SCHOOL? What about Dennis?!! What does that do to the accepted story of the song's (and the group's) origins? What does that say about Carl's recollection? What does that say about what's in Brian's "autobiography"?
In just a matter of months, we have different stories of the origin of the song from Carl and Brian. Who do you believe? Who's more likely to be accurate? The guy who was only 14 at the time or the one was 19?
Give me physical evidence any day!
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:30 am:
Brad: Now that's more like it! Why didn't you mention this earlier?
If signing the "Standard Songwriters Contract" definitely means the tape was recorded the same day, then it certainly IS sufficient proof. And if the contract was properly signed, witnessed, and notarized on September 15th, then the theory I postulated above is wrong. DEAD wrong. It also is verfication that Murry was not in Mexico City that weekend, and that Murry was present for the recording of the rehearsal. Unless Murry left immediately after signing the contract. But if Murry did stay, that would jibe with Alan's recollection that after hearing the songs, Hite and Murry liked "Surfin'" best.
It would also mean the Pendletones (sorry, Pendletons) initial visit to the Morgans was NOT on a "dreary" day in September (at least as would be defined by NOAA-Oxnard). Dorinda either conflated, embellished, or meant something other than the weather.
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:33 am:
P.S. -- Cam, the recording session date was Oct. 3, not Oct. 8.
By Cam Mott on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:42 am:
Something else about Carl's recollections in that February 1966 article ...
He said: "Our first recording session was held in a movie dubbing studio."
Not counting the acoustic demo session, their first recording session was held at World Pacific Studios (formerly Keen Studios), a long-time audio recording studio. Many, many records (including lots of jazz) had been made there over the years. It certainly wasn't "a movie dubbing studio"!
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:54 am:
Phlip wrote:
** Why didn't you mention this earlier? **
Because I didn't remember that the songwriting contract was dated the same day as the demo session. It was only when I stumbled across the copy of the contract in my files that I made the connection. Sorry.
** It also is verfication that Murry was not in Mexico City that weekend, and that Murry was present for the recording of the rehearsal. Unless Murry left immediately after signing the contract. But if Murry did stay, that would jibe with Alan's recollection that after hearing the songs, Hite and Murry liked "Surfin'" best. **
There's no separate date associated with Murry's signature (he had to sign off to one side as there were no signature blanks provided for a minor's legal guardian). But based on circumstantial evidence, it would appear that he signed it at the same time as everybody else.
On the second page of the contract, where the royalty split between the song's authors is spelled out, Brian's name was misspelled "Bryan" and Murry has corrected it to "Brian" (you know Murry did it, for two reasons: the correction was made with the same pen as Murry's signature, and he initialed the correction "MGW"). Brian's signature on the contract is only an inch or so further down the page than the misspelling, so he'd have undoubtedly seen the problem when he went to sign the contract. The fact that he didn't make the correction himself says it probably had already been made by somebody else -- i.e., Murry, which means he had to have been there that day.
Brad
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 12:27 pm:
Brad: I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question at this point, but about the renting of the instruments and Murry & Audree's trip to Mexico City...
1. Concurrent with (or just prior to) the October 3rd session at World Pacific?
or
2. Labor Day weekend?
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:44 pm:
OK, I’ve looked at the appropriate passage of Whitcomb and can make a small report. First, proper citation:
Whitcomb, Ian. Rock Odyssey: A Chronicle of the Sixties. Garden City, N.Y.: Dolphin Books, 1983. Edition is 1994 paperback. Diary format is a bit deceptive. Whitcomb clearly inserts a lot of stuff in after the fact. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s a good read, and I’d say that any BB/BW fan will find it as informative as most of the books we’ve discussed on various threads. I am never sure – please, don’t take offense – of how much creative license several Brit writers such as Hoskyns and Kent take in creating a story that is a little too neatly tied for my eyes. As someone who doesn’t quite live in the real world myself, that isn’t troublesome. It is a factor in an endeavor like this, however. Whitcomb writes like that, and sometimes he clearly overwrites himself into a mistake. Certainly, his restating of the BB creation myth has more detail than it has factual accuracy. But he is a good resource, and not just in this passage. Remember: he was a Tower artist and an opening act for the group the summer of 1965.
Anyway, Barry Haven and his wife are both British, lived in the US and were in the process of preparing to relocate to California when they visited the Wilsons, whom Haven knew through ABLE Machinery. He was a client of Murry’s and an associate of Whitcomb’s father through the oil industry. It seems like the Havens may have even visited Murry and Audrey before. They had gone native enough that Whitcomb compared their accents to Spike Milligan and Peter Sellers parody of Yank-speak. Bear in mind that Whitcomb heard this story from Barry Haven in the summer of 1963. Memory, entropy, embellishment and such could play in.
“They kindly arranged to take us to Mexico on a three-day trip . . . and they left several hundred dollars for their three boys -- Carl, Brian and Dennis -- to live on. When we got back, they greeted us with some songs they’d written and played on instruments they’d bought with the food money. Guitars, bass, drums, you name it. They gave us a miniconcert and it wasn’t bad. The wife and me almost got up and did some twisting to it. . . . Anyway, Murry was first furious when he saw what his boys had bought with the food money and he wasn’t one to spare the rod and spoil the child. But his attitude changed pretty fast after he heard the songs. Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also had some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxyvooing. (Sic. I think this was prob intended as a pidgin french of relax-e’vous-ing and I’m sorry but the image I get of Murry and Barry Haven is of two Ralph Cramdens attempting to become Reginald van Gleasons.) So immediately, he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded. He was quite a nifty songwriter himself, the sort of moon-over-Waikiki variety. I remember going back to see them a few months later – I had to see Murry about some machinery or other – and I arrived to find him administering a real old pep talk to his lads, just like one of those ruddy football coaches they have here. They’re quite a Germanic race in a way, the Yanks. But it gets results. He got them into the studio and onto a record and now, with him managing them, they’re so rich we never see them.”
I don’t get any impression from the above that this took place over Labor Day, and in fact would prefer to think it was in August during a classic summer vacation time. I also get the impression that the Havens were houseguests both before and after the three-day trip. Am I right that the UK has a mid-Aug holiday that a US rep for a UK company
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:49 pm:
last sentence shgould read:
Am I right that the UK has a mid-Aug holiday that a US rep for a UK company might well choose to take off?
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:57 pm:
For what it's worth, when I first saw the World Pacific logo on a chad & Jeremy record, I thought it just be the record branch of a film company. Admittedly, I was 11 at the time not 14.
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:58 pm:
Phlip wrote:
** Brad: I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question at this point **
No, not a stupid question and certainly one to which it would be nice to have a definitive answer. Unfortunately, I don't have one and I don't think there's really any way to get one 40+ years after the fact.
** about the renting of the instruments and Murry & Audree's trip to Mexico City... 1. Concurrent with (or just prior to) the October 3rd session at World Pacific? or 2. Labor Day weekend? **
A couple of thoughts on the subject ...
(1) In any case, I don't think it's likely the instruments were rented twice. In the Ken Sharp interview, Al seems to indicate that his mom was paying for the instruments (or at least his instrument) on some kind of long-term basis. That says to me that it probably wasn't a short-term 1- or 2-day rental, but rather the kind of extended rental that kids normally get on band instruments from music stores. Which would lead to the conclusion that the Boys had the instruments for some period of time after the date they were actually rented. So if they rented them for the Labor Day weekend, they could still have had them a month later for the actual recording session.
(2) Somewhere in all of this, we have to factor in the "Surfin'" rehearsal session from which fragments have been excerpted on the GV boxed set and the recent HAWTHORNE package. (To be honest, I hadn't really thought about this until just now.) Listening to those excerpts, it would seem the rehearsal (at the Wilsons' home) is occurring very shortly after the song was written, possibly before the initial demo session for the Morgans. What is most interesting is that no instruments other than an acoustic guitar are heard! If the Boys had rented instruments over the Labor Day weekend and then had them for a month until the actual recording session, why aren't they heard? Together with the fact that the demo session for the Morgans was acoustic, this would seem to point us toward the conclusion that the instruments weren't rented until just prior to the actual recording session. Which, of course, just blows the hell out of the whole Labor Day weekend story!
Or it could simply be that the rehearsal tape was made over the Labor Day weekend after the song was written, but before the instruments were rented. And that when Hite Morgan wanted to make a demo tape, he didn't have room in his house studio to accommodate all the Boys AND their instruments, so he had them peform acoustically.
Personally, I think the first possibility makes more sense.
Taking that into account, if we assume there are some kernels of truth in the details of the Labor Day weekend story, but also assume that memories of events (especially Murry's) have been conflated, I think we might be looking at a series of events that played out like this:
Late August or early September 1961 -- The Pendletons are told by Hite Morgan that they need to have some original material if they hope to do anything in the music business.
Early September -- Brian & Mike write "Surfin'," based on a suggestion from either Dennis or "someone in school." They rehearse the song (acoustically) at the Wilsons' home and then audition the song for the Morgans, who react favorably and give the group two other songs to learn.
Sept. 15 -- The Pendletons cut a three-song acoustic demo for Hite Morgan. Brian & Mike sign a publishing contract for "Surfin'" with Morgan's Guild Music Co.
Late September -- Murry and Audree take a trip to Mexico. The Wilson boys seize the opportunity to do something while their parents are away and use their food/emergency money to rent instruments. Al prevails upon his mother to lay out the money to rent a stand-up bass. Upon Murry's and Audree's return, they play them the song with full instrumental backing and Murry reacts negatively, at least partly due to the fact they'd spent all the money he'd left them, but maybe also because he'd only heard the song as an acoustic number to that point and hadn't envisioned his boys turning it into rock 'n' roll?
Oct. 3 -- With instruments, the Pendletons record "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" at World Pacific Studios.
I admit a lot of the above scenario is pure speculation, but it seems to include the main points of the myth (the Wilsons' visit to Mexico, the Boys blowing their food/emergency money, Murry reacting negatively) as well as the verifiable facts (a Sept. 15 demo session, the acoustic nature of the rehearsal tape, etc.). Comments?
Brad
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:19 pm:
I just read Textus' post of the relevant information from the Whitcomb book (he posted it while I was writing my last post), and in some ways it doesn't seem to conflict with the hypothetical scenario I just threw out. In others, though, it does.
First, there's no indication the trip to Mexico took place over the Labor Day weekend. Textus favors an August dating, while I think the presence of instruments tends to indicate it was after the Sept. 15 demo session (based largely on the fact that the rehearsal session recorded at the Wilson home was acoustic, too).
The major area where there seems to be a disagreement is that Haven indicates that Murry was hearing the songs for the first time. That couldn't be the case if the trip took place in late September, because Murry had to have heard "Surfin'" prior to his signing the songwriting contract for Brian on Sept. 15. So either Haven is mistaken about that fact and Murry wasn't hearing the songs for the first time, or my entire scenario is shite.
If the latter is the case, then there's only two ways to explain things:
(1) As I theorized earlier (but rejected), the rehearsal tape was made during the weekend of the Mexico trip after the song was written, but before the instruments were rented. Then, when Hite Morgan wanted to make a demo tape, he had the Boys peform acoustically for some reason (lack of room, inability to adequately mic the instruments, etc.).
(2) The Boys really did rent instruments twice! The first rental would have been for the weekend of the Mexico trip, and they turned them back in before making both the rehearsal tape and the Sept. 15 demo tape. The second rental would have been for the Oct. 3 recording session.
At this point, I have no idea which scenario is most likely! What I wouldn't give for a time machine right now!
Brad
By Textus (Textus) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:32 pm:
Unless Al is really unreliable (and I have no indication that this is so, the one time I talked to him he hedged on something rather than risked stating it incorrectly), I'd go with the two rentals as part of the whole story. My favoring August doesn't reflect a full understanding of this entire thread, bear in mind.
Except the part about Al taking a year off to run anti-Castro activities with E. Howard Hunt, whom I've also interviewed (and whose family piano I used to own only now my ex has it).
By on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:41 pm:
Wasn't Al spotted on the sidewalks in New Orleans handing out pro-Castro literature with Lee Harvey?
No wonder we can't get this straightened out! The CIA is behind it!!!
By Cam Mott on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:57 pm:
Brad,
That is what I was trying to say. Carl and Al aren't inaccurately describing the Sept demo session, they are describing what they consider their first recording session, the one which produced a record, the October session. They apparently are saying the instruments were recorded for or just before the October session. Aural evidence you point out shows it was apparently between Sept 15 and October 3. We keep trying to make there description fit a date and definition they don't intend it seems to me.
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:27 pm:
"AGD: Did Gary Winfrey ever explain to you why it is he remembers Al and Brian singing in the nurse's office in SEPTEMBER 1961?"
Because he was there as well.
"Am I right that the UK has a mid-Aug holiday that a US rep for a UK company might well choose to take off?"
Not quite - the August Bank Holiday is the last Monday in the month, which in 1961 would have been the 28th. But, it is the school summer vacation.
Brad, I'm still not sold on the idea of Murry & Audree trusting Carl, Brian and (especially) Dennis to make it to school & college on their own (unless, of course, they left on Friday morning)... but I have to admit that the Labor Day aspect is beginning to look a bit shaky.
By Susan on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:29 pm:
That should be "They apparently are saying the instruments were *rented* for or just before the October session."
Hurrying to get ready for church.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:01 pm:
Brad: I guess you might not be surprised to learn that I go with the first scenario you described. I chose it because of Alan's interview in Gold Mine. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, Al is just sharp and obsessive enough to get the details of the story fairly straight, more free from conflation than the other principles involved.
Here's my scenario. (We'll call this Scenario #14-A):
September 15 (Friday night): Rehearsal recorded at Hite's home studio. Carl and/or Al bring a guitar.
September 29 (Friday): A recording date has been scheduled at World Pacific for Tuesday night, October 3rd. Murry and Audree go to Mexico City with the Havens for the weekend. They leave Brian (the responsible one) $80 "for emergencies." There is plenty of food in the house, so it is NOT "food money."
September 30 (Saturday): With Murry safely out of town, Brian is persuaded by the others to use the $80 to rent instruments for the Tuesday session. They end up $300 short (the music store wants a security deposit for the bass fiddle).
ASIDE: Remember the original liner notes from the "Carl & the Passions-So Tough" album?...
"THANKS TO ALAN'S MOM FOR RENTING THE BASS FIDDLE ON THE FIRST SESSION"
Virginia Jardine (Al's mom) comes to the rescue. The band takes the instruments back to the Wilson house, and they set 'em up and start to play. Thanks to Tele-Hawthorne, loads of kids show up for a "party" at the Wilson house. ("PARTY AT BRIAN'S HOUSE, DUDE!!!"). The Hawthorne Police are called, and the cops arrive and shut it down.
October 1 (Sunday): Murry and Audree arrive home with the Havens. Murry freaks when he finds out Brian spent the $80 "emergency money" and had a party without permission, but cools off once he hears the guys perform a tight version of "Surfin'." He realizes the band has been practicing for the Tuesday recording session, and the party wasn't their idea.
(Actually, I think this might have been a plot from an episode of "The Adventures of Ozzie & Harriet" or "Leave It to Beaver," wasn't it?)
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:01 pm:
"...coincidentally some of those dreary days fall around the October session. If the Boys do indeed feel that that session is their first "real" session then whose to say Dorinda might not feel the same."
Problem with this, Cam, is that Dorinda is unmistakeably describing the first, pre-9/15, audition session:
"They did several 'top ten' numbers for us... My husband asked Brian if he could write something along the lines of Chuck Berry... Brian & Michael looked at each other and nodded... To our surprise Dennis broke in excitedly and said "no-one has ever written a song about surfing !"... Brian & Michael started writing immediately. they had a rough draft of "Surfin'" before they left the office".
And you're going to looooove the next bit -
"All of a sudden the day wasn't so dreary anymore."
So much for the weather angle.
"A few days later they came back with the finished song.it was pretty good. My husband recorded them..."
Now, if we accept that Dorinda is accurate here, then this tends to negate the Labor Day weekend rehersals story. 9/15/61 was a Friday, so the audition session was something like 9/10-11-12... unless, of course, you regard two weeks as 'a few days'.
Thoughts, anyone (and you're right, Brad - why is there never a time machine handy when you really need one ?) ?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:11 pm:
AGD: And if Gary Winfrey correctly remembers the date of the nurse's office hootenany (and even you said, "...he was there as well," when I asked how it was he remembered it as SEPTEMBER 1961), then... well, the first day of the Fall Semester was September 11th. So is Gary conflating again, or what?
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 04:49 pm:
Andrew,
You wrote:
** Brad, I'm still not sold on the idea of Murry & Audree trusting Carl, Brian and (especially) Dennis to make it to school & college on their own (unless, of course, they left on Friday morning) **
Hmmm ... I understand what you're saying (especially about Dennis) and you may have a point. The nice thing about putting the Mexico trip on the Labor Day weekend is that, in 1961, school probably wouldn't have been a problem. Today, the school systems in the U.S. tend to start back in mid to late August, but in the 1960s, the norm was for school to start AFTER the Labor Day holiday, usually on the Tuesday immediately following. So it would fit very neatly if the trip had taken place, say, Friday through Monday, with school restarting on Tuesday.
** but I have to admit that the Labor Day aspect is beginning to look a bit shaky. **
Well, yes and no. For a while there, I was pretty certain the Mexico trip had to have been between Sept. 15 and Oct. 3, but taking into account the Haven quotes, I'm leaning back in the direction that it probably was over the Labor Day weekend and that the Boys probably did rent instruments twice -- or maybe they rented once and then purchased. (Cam, pay attention to the following, because this is as much a reply to your post as to Andrew's).
Notice that Carl actually says (in that Teen Beat article), "We pooled our savings to buy instruments and, in October-November, 1961, we began seriously singing and playing as a group." By itself, that statement may be 100 percent accurate. Suppose that the Boys actually did rent instruments while the Wilsons were in Mexico in early September, but then had to turn them back in. (They may have been planned as long-term rentals, but is anybody willing to bet that Murry wouldn't have made them try to get some of the money back by returning them early?) So they ended up rehearsing and making the Sept. 15 demo tape acoustically. But they knew what they really wanted to do, so they worked and earned some money, pooled their savings and actually BOUGHT instruments at the beginning of October! In fact, that could have been the true impetus for holding a recording session on Oct. 3 -- the Boys might have called up Morgan and said, "Hey, we've got instruments now; let's make the record."
And if you look closely at what Al said, he doesn't preclude the possibility of such a scenario. He said, "My mother had to rent the equipment because the Wilsons had gone on vacation to Mexico and the food money was gone. So we had to go and beg, borrow and steal from my mother, who came up with 300 bucks. [...] We cut 'Surfin'' real quickly. We did it all at one time. We sang and played. We just stood up in front of the microphone and basically played the song for Murry and the publisher and that's the one they liked." Notice that Al said the reason they had to "beg, borrow and steal" from his mother was that the Wilsons were on vacation in Mexico. Then he turned around and indicated that Murry was at the audition (demo?) session for Hite Morgan. Those two statements are not easily reconciled! If Murry's absence was the reason for hitting up his mom, then it couldn't have been in connection with actually peforming the song for Morgan, because Murry was at that session! So I think Al may be talking about two different points in time. His comments about renting the instruments and hitting up his mom for money would seem to be for something predating the audition of the song for Morgan -- perhaps the legendary Labor Day weekend writing of the song and its subsequent performance for the Wilsons?
Finally, I want to briefly address why I'm thinking the Labor Day weekend story may be correct as to its timing. As Phlip noted earlier, when extra details not necesssary to telling a story are included, it means either it's what really happened or that the storyteller is intentionally embellishing the story. In this case, the Labor Day weekend aspect of the story really is unimportant. The events could have happened any weekend in August or September, and it wouldn't have made any difference in the final result. So we then have to look at the question of why would somebody embellish the story by dating the events to the Labor Day weekend? Who gains anything from that embellishment? For the life of me, I can't figure out why anybody would make that particular embellishment or how it possibly would gain anything for anybody! So we're left with the conclusion that it's what really happened. The reason everybody involved has always said the Mexico trip and the instrument rental took place over the Labor Day weekend is simply because it did.
Brad (getting hand cramps from writing so much today!)
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:05 pm:
Phlip,
For reasons I just outlined (using your own theory about embellishment of stories), I obviously disagree with your latest scenario. I think Murry and Audree went to Mexico over the Labor Day weekend, just as we've always been told, and that's when the Boys rented instruments. Then you've got Carl saying they bought their own instruments in October or November and placing the actual recording of "Surfin'" as occurring after that!
** Remember the original liner notes from the "Carl & the Passions-So Tough" album?... "THANKS TO ALAN'S MOM FOR RENTING THE BASS FIDDLE ON THE FIRST SESSION" **
Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Al's bass fiddle may have been the one exception to the Boys returning their instruments to get their rental money back. Virginia Jardine obviously indicated to Al that the financial indebtedness in connection with that standup bass was a somewhat long-term thing. That would be in keeping with, as I've said, the kind of long-term instrument rentals that kids get though music stores. So I have no problem supposing that Al hung onto his rented standup bass through the month of September and still had it come the Oct. 3 recording session. And given the hassle of carrying one of those things around, that could easily explain why it's not heard on either the rehearsal tape or the Sept. 15 demo session.
** Murry and Audree arrive home with the Havens. Murry freaks when he finds out Brian spent the $80 "emergency money" and had a party without permission, but cools off once he hears the guys perform a tight version of "Surfin'." **
This is the primary place that your latest scenario falls apart. According to Haven, Murry had never before heard the songs the Boys performed. Under your scenario, he'd have had to, as he'd signed the songwriting agreement for the song on Sept. 15.
These are just my thoughts, nothing more. This isn't a situation where we're ever likely to find documentation proving things one way or the other.
Brad
By Brad on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 05:31 pm:
Andrew,
You asked: "Thoughts, anyone?"
Yeah, one or two ...
You wrote:
** [Dorinda:] "A few days later they came back with the finished song. it was pretty good. My husband recorded them..." **
then theorized:
** Now, if we accept that Dorinda is accurate here, then this tends to negate the Labor Day weekend rehersals story. 9/15/61 was a Friday, so the audition session was something like 9/10-11-12... unless, of course, you regard two weeks as 'a few days'. **
No, I don't regard two weeks as a few days, but notice that Dorinda doesn't say that her husband recorded them the same day! In fact, she says, "My husband recorded them performing 'Surfin' along with a tune our son Bruce wrote called 'Luau.'" So when did they learn "Luau"? And "Lavender," which she doesn't even mention?
Obviously, there had to be some time between when they came back with the finished song (which the Morgans found "pretty good") and the actual demo session, because they had to learn and prepare "Luau" and "Lavender" for the session, too. And I really don't think it would have been a matter of simply giving the Boys the two songs and then recording them the next day. I think the Morgans, as the songwriters of those two tunes, would have wanted to hear the Boys do them and be sure they had them down pat before planning a demo session. So I think there likely would have been at least several days added in there for learning, rehearsing and auditioning "Luau" and "Lavender" prior to the demo session. Which easily pushes things back to where "Surfin'" could have been written over Labor Day weekend (Sept. 2-4).
My proposed scenario would be:
late August -- The once and future BBs are told by the Morgans they need to have original material if they're going to make it in the music business. They begin work on "Surfin'," based on a suggestion from Dennis.
Sept. 2-4 -- Murry and Audree take the Havens to Mexico, leaving the Boys behind. They take their food/emergency money and use it to rent instruments, on which they finish and rehearse "Surfin'." Upon Murry's and Audree's return, the Boys are initially met with a negative response (due to spending the money), but then they play them what they've worked up.
Sept. 5 or 6 -- The Boys return to see the Morgans and play them "Surfin'." Hite reacts favorably and indicates he wants to record them. He and Dorinda give the Boys the songs "Luau" and "Lavender" to learn ('cause you gotta have a B-side).
Sept. 7-14 -- The Boys work on learning and perfecting "Luau" and "Lavender," probably returning once or twice to see the Morgans to show them their progress. At the last such audition session, the Morgans feel the Boys are adequately prepared for a demo session and schedule it for Sept. 15. During this week, Hite also talks with Mike and Brian (and probably Murry) about his handling the publishing on "Surfin'."
Sept. 15 -- The Boys cut demos of "Surfin'," "Luau" and "Lavender" for Hite Morgan. Murry is in attendance at the session. Prior to recording the demos, the songwriter's contract for "Surfin'" is signed by Mike, Brian, Murry and Hite.
Comments?
Brad
P.S. -- Whattya say we ditch this BB stuff temporarily and devote our efforts to constructing a time machine?
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:50 pm:
Latest from Gary concerning Alan: he doesn';t recall him returning to California at all during his time at Ferris, and after finishing ECC in June 1962, Alan worked in the aircraft industry, possibly with Garrett Air Research.
"AGD: And if Gary Winfrey correctly remembers the date of the nurse's office hootenany (and even you said, "...he was there as well," when I asked how it was he remembered it as SEPTEMBER 1961), then... well, the first day of the Fall Semester was September 11th. So is Gary conflating again, or what?"
Gotta admit, it's a minor problem... but I think I'll lay off the poor guy over Easter. I expect his family is wondering about his sudden obsession with his highschool and college career !
And I love the way 'conflation' has established itself in the NSMB lexicon. Now, if I can just manage to work 'sasquatch' into this thread...
By AGD (Agd) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 10:16 pm:
"P.S. -- Whattya say we ditch this BB stuff temporarily and devote our efforts to constructing a time machine?"
Count me in - I'm sure I've got an old flux capacitor in the loft somewhere.
By Cam Mott on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:38 am:
Re. "movie dubbing studio": I can't claim that a 14 year old understands everything he is told but I believe they remember what they have done, especially something as big as starting a music career. Though it doesn't show that the soundtracks were "dubbed" at World Pacific's studio, a quick websearch turned up at least 3 soundtracks released on the World Pacific label by 1966, all seem to involve surfing coincidently. "Slippery When Wet" 1959, "Barefoot Adventure" 1961, "Endless Summer" 1966.
Re. Labor Day: It still looks to me that the Boys involved in the recording are saying the instruments were rented, while the Wilson's and Havens were in Mexico, to record the version of "Surfin" which happened on October 3. Since none of the instruments rented to record "Surfin'" can be heard recorded until October 3 then they must have been rented after any recordings without them. It would be a mystery to me to have the instruments available, either on hand or with only the knowledge from past experience that they were available, and not bother to use or re-rent them for either audition/demo tape. Why would the Morgan's have a home studio that couldn't even accomodate 5 people plus an expensive rented string bass and guitar?
I personally can't see a reason to give the recollection of a visiting machinist [or whatever] credence over the recollection of the musicians involved. But that's just me.
I'm too lazy to search, where did the information associating it with Labor Day come from? Thanks.
To AGD: There was rain reported in LA County on August 23 and 24 1961 [grin] but I would think that to Dorinda "a few days" would be more then "a couple of days" but less then "a week".
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:39 am:
The Aug 28 date AGD mentions could effectively explain how a US-based Brit working for a UK oil company might simply use the whole week to go to SoCal and start plans for a move there.
Do we have a date for the start of the public-school year in 1961-62. I can guarantee you this remembering second grade: In Bartlesville OK it was the Tuesday after Labor Day. Nothing the week before. Moving back to the week before Labor Day didn't start in my home town until Aug 1965, and then I think because they wanted to "declare" a holiday that last week in August to celebrate the 66th birthday of Boots Adams, CEO at the time of Phillips Petroleum Co. Anyway, even if classes had started yet, they hadn't at ECCC, right? So Brian would have been responsible for getting the others to school.
Anyway, my own feeling is that the Haven visit lasted a good week or so that included a three-day trip to Mexico. This would be consistent with both the UK holiday to the extent that it is relevant at all, with Labor Day weekend, with the beginning of the school year, and I think with Dorinda's recollection about the pre-rehearsal stuff. My only real problem with Labor Day weekend had been that it compacted things a bit too much. I now think it instead extended the last week of August.
All that would have been necesary for Carl to have that impression about World Pacific would have been for mixing to have been going on for a s'track at some point in their session, which I think is totally feasible. Totally. He's definitely talking about the Oct 3/8 session -- I know there's not a conflict about date, just don't remember which it was and we're on a new thread now dontchaknow.
Re Alan's knack for detail: Alan is, in fact, an anagram for anal.
Brad, of course, is the one among us who lived the closest to CIA headquarter in Langley Virginia on 11/22/63. I didn't really want to bring this up, but since AGD has introduced the aerospace industry into the discussion, we are really just a step away from Gary Powers, Patsy Cline and Deke Slater's mysterious heart murmer. Note that Al's family is from the same state as John Glenn, and the next state over from Chuck Yeager.
Oh, I didn't mention this before: I was actually in Southern and Central California a few weeks before this, visiting my cousin who was in the Phil Spector Three and whom Lee Hazlewood produced as an artist for both Liberty and Dot during this period. My other cousins, the ones in Fresno, were mainly interested in whether Mantle or Marris would succeed in passing Ruth. Brian, of course, played center field in the era of Mickey, Willie and the Duke.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:06 am:
The problem of "getting the kids off to school" while Murry & Audree were in Mexico City should be a non-issue.
We have two teenage sons (one of whom is a LOT like Dennis Wilson), and my wife and I have gone on trips not just for one day, but for an entire week, during the school year.
What we do is make sure that the mom of one of their friends checks up on them, and makes sure they get themselves to school.
No problems so far.
It certainly does not preclude us from leaving town during the school year! Why should it have been a problem for Murry & Audree?
By Cam Mott on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 09:37 am:
*All that would have been necesary for Carl to have that impression about World Pacific would have been for mixing to have been going on for a s'track at some point in their session, which I think is totally feasible.*
Or even as little as an engineer saying "a song about surfin' hunh? We dubbed Bud Shank on the soundtrack for a couple of movies about surfin'" or some such could an impressionable 14 year a wrong impression. Anyways....
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 10:20 am:
Brad (from History 102 thread)...
>>> Finally, I want to briefly address why I'm thinking the Labor Day weekend story may be correct as to its timing. As Phlip noted earlier, when extra details not necesssary to telling a story are included, it means either it's what really happened or that the storyteller is intentionally embellishing the story. In this case, the Labor Day weekend aspect of the story really is unimportant. The events could have happened any weekend in August or September, and it wouldn't have made any difference in the final result. So we then have to look at the question of why would somebody embellish the story by dating the events to the Labor Day weekend?<<<
Except Barry Haven did NOT state that it was over the Labor Day weekend. It's not in the David Leaf book, or in the Steven Gaines book ("Heroes and Villains"), or in Todd Gold's "autobiography" of Brian Wilson ("Wouldn't It Be Nice"), or in Byron Preiss' "authorized" group biography, or in the Tom Nolan two-parter in "Rolling Stone" ("The Beach Boys: A California Saga") from 1971, or in the Paul Williams interview with David Anderle (that found its way into "Outlaw Blues") from 1967, or in Timothy White's two-parter ("Still Waters Run Deep") in "Crawdaddy" magazine in 1976, or in Neal Gabler's group interview in "New Times" magazine ("The Beach Boys: Riding a New Wave") from 1976.
The ONLY place I can find "Labor Day weekend" mentioned in connection with the Mexico City trip is on page 142 of Timothy White's book "The Nearest Farawy Place" (published in 1994).
Where, oh where, did White get this from?
Otherwise, the Mexico City trip is described in most all the usual sources, but only as just a "tree-day trip"... not specific to Labor Day or any other date... not even specific to a weekend!
As far as Haven's recollection that Murry hadn't heard the songs before, maybe (as Brad postulated) Murry just hadn't heard "Surfin'" played QUITE THAT WAY before (hot rock & roll style, with two guitars, drums, and a bass fiddle).
By Gl (Gl) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 11:42 am:
Susan
Is this the new place where you said you and me could cross-polinate?
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 11:50 am:
I would bet that Dennis was White's source. Notes at beginning of Nearest indicate that their conversations were a big motor for the book.
Consistency never minds fooling around with goblins.
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:10 pm:
Tim White also gives the name of the music stoire - Wallichs' Music City in Hollywood. Now, of course, this isn't anywhere near Hawthorne Blvd., but White does correctly state that Virginia Jardine had to sign for the rest of the rental (as it was over the $150 the guys had).
Hmmm. I've still got a problem with the guys driving from Hawthorne to Hollywood just to rent instruments, but otherwise the scenario is plausible
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:14 pm:
Hum. The store went out of business in 1978. Back to the drawing board.
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:16 pm:
I was thinking Wallichs was what I'd read but couldn't remember where. Yeah, location is all wrong -- but it was the most broad-based music story in the area, of course. At least by reputation and going back to the 1930s.
Is it possible that Dennis is the source for that too and he simply didn't know?
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:19 pm:
If anyone has access to early 90s Billboards, there was a really length obit on Wallichs by Dave Dexter. Can't remember how much was about the store, but do know that it was the place that Dexter Gordon first heard Nat Cole during an after-hours jam and pointed him out to fledgling label co-owner Wallichs. That's one version of how Cole came to Capitol anyway.
Actually, I'm now beginning to doubt that it was Wallichs' store. Its role in Capitol history would have involved playing that part up a lot.
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:34 pm:
Hmmm. Rereading White. Interesting. He also states that on his return from Mexico, Murry insisted the boys return the instruments forthwith. And according to White, they were still renting instruments when they did the Dick Dale gig.
Thoughts ?
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:37 pm:
You know, a lot of people don't think there is enough BB content in there to actually get wrong...
Also, not to cross-pollinate w/the Record Guide thread, but White's accuracy and his ability to understand what he is being told are constant points of contemtion in the Rock and Rap Confidential newsletter.
By Brad on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:58 pm:
A couple of points ...
Cam says:
** It still looks to me that the Boys involved in the recording are saying the instruments were rented, while the Wilson's and Havens were in Mexico, to record the version of "Surfin" which happened on October 3. **
As I noted before, that's definitely not what Carl said. From the 2/66 Teen Beat article (which you posted and quoted):
"We pooled our savings to buy instruments and, in October-November, 1961, we began seriously singing and playing as a group. Then Brian felt we were ready for a second try. He'd written 'Surfin' which we all believed had hit potential. Our first recording session was held in a movie dubbing studio."
Carl clearly is saying the Boys BOUGHT their instruments before actual recording session (on Oct. 3). That seems quite a different story than the one told about using the food/emergency money to rent instruments while Murry and Audree were in Mexico, indicating (to me, at least) that it's a completely different event -- a later one, since it's tied to the first recording session.
Phlip wrote:
** Barry Haven did NOT state that it was over the Labor Day weekend. It's not in the David Leaf book, or in the Steven Gaines book ("Heroes and Villains"), or in Todd Gold's "autobiography" of Brian Wilson ("Wouldn't It Be Nice"), or in Byron Preiss' "authorized" group biography, or in the Tom Nolan two-parter in "Rolling Stone" ("The Beach Boys: A California Saga") from 1971, or in the Paul Williams interview with David Anderle (that found its way into "Outlaw Blues") from 1967, or in Timothy White's two-parter ("Still Waters Run Deep") in "Crawdaddy" magazine in 1976, or in Neal Gabler's group interview in "New Times" magazine ("The Beach Boys: Riding a New Wave") from 1976. The ONLY place I can find "Labor Day weekend" mentioned in connection with the Mexico City trip is on page 142 of Timothy White's book "The Nearest Farawy Place" (published in 1994). **
Wow! Interesting, isn't it, that we can get an idea so engrained in our minds that we don't question it. Phlip's right, though (Good job, man!), it's not in any of the standard sources except White. When I was writing the liner notes for my now-stalled FIRST WAVE set, I compiled a huge collection of quotes and comments about the group's early days from all the standard sources, plus quite a few obscure ones. I just went through that compendium to see where the Labor Day reference might have originated. But instead I found it's simply not there! Anywhere!
Obviously, White didn't just make it up out of whole cloth; that story has been around since I first became a diehard fan back in the mid-1970s, so I'm sure there's a reason for it. But by and large, while the various first-hand stories refer to Murry and Audree taking a Mexican vacation (or something similar), there's never anything said to tie it to a specific point in time during the Summer or Fall of 1961. So, while we're revising our understanding of the group's origins, I guess we should conclude that Murry's and Audree's trip to Mexico maybe didn't occur over the Labor Day weekend!
I still think the trip probably occurred before the Sept. 15 demo session, rather than between the demo session and the recording session. The stories about the trip usually are associated with a tale of Murry reacting negatively until he hears "Surfin'" FOR THE FIRST TIME, and we've firmly established, with his signing of the Sept. 15 songwriting contract, that he had to have heard the song prior to that date. But freeing the trip from being tied to the Labor Day weekend means it could have been late August or possibly Sept. 9-11. Personally, I favor the former, because it erases the possible problem of public school having already started and because I don't think there'd have been enough time between Sept. 11 and Sept. 15 to cram in everything that needed to occur before the demo session. In fact, looking strictly at possible timelines, Labor Day weekend actually may be the best fit for when the trip occurred!
Finally, something I just wanted to throw into the discussion for the fun of it, proving ... what? ... I don't know ... maybe that Dennis is not a reliable source?
This is from a radio interview Dennis did in 1977 while promoting his solo album (emphasis mine):
"I just remember my parents LEAVING FOR EUROPE, and they left us some food money, and we took the food money and went down and bought instruments."
EUROPE?!! So do we now need to question all the stories about the trip? Could Barry Haven have been completely mistaken about where they went? And if Murry and Audree went to Europe, surely they were gone longer than just three days, right?
Brad
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:04 pm:
Mexico.Montenegro. They're easy to confuse.
By Phlip (Phlip) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:25 pm:
When at least five people (Audree Wilson, Dorinda Morgan, Barry Haven, Alan Jardine, and Carl Wilson) remembered it as a Mexico City trip, and only one remembered it as a trip to Europe (and that one is someone named Dennis Wilson circa 1977), we might want to believe the other five.
Virginia Jardine rented the bass fiddle for the first session. That seems pretty certain. But what is meant by "first session"? Is that the September 15th demo-session at Morgan's home studio, or the World Pacific (official) "session" of October 3rd that produced the versions of "Surfin'" and "Luau" released later than year by Candix?
Well, since they didn't use a bass fiddle at the September 15th demo recording session on Mayberry Street, then I don't think that's what they were referring to when the liner notes from "Carl & the Passions--So Tough" state "THANKS TO ALAN'S MOM FOR RENTING THE BASS FIDDLE ON THE FIRST SESSION." And since Alan's mom renting the bass fiddle ties into Murry & Audree being in Mexico at the time, that wouild SEEM to place the renting of the instruments (and the trip to Mexico City) to sometime AFTER September 15th.
And the reason Virginia Jardine was needed? Because Murry and Audree were out of town, and getting the bass fiddle was seen by the group (or at least by Brian, in particular) as (musically) urgent. (Perhaps Murry had been approached about renting a bass, but had told Brian they didn't need one, or else he'd pick one up the day of the session).
I just can't see why getting a bass fiddle would be so terribly important, if it wasn't that a recording date was staring them in the face, and the group (or Brian) felt they needed the bass fiddle for the session.
If the October 3rd session was not yet scheduled, or if Brian, Mike, and Murry hadn't even signed the contract with Guild (Hite Morgan) yet, why did Virginia Jardine need to become involved? Why would it be SO critical to get that bass fiddle IMMEDIATELY? What's the hurry?
Audree claimed the trip was for three days. If the couples left from LAX Friday night (September 29th), and were gone for three days, they would not have returned until Monday night (October 2nd), with a recording session scheduled the very next day.
October 3rd was a Tuesday, a school day, so the session was probably sometime after school or in the evening. If Murry and Audree weren't coming back 'til (let's say) Monday night, and if Murry had maybe told Brian they would get the drums and bass fiddle before the session, the group probably figured they'd just get the instruments (and amps) a couple of days early, and practice with them over the weekend.
And how would Barry Haven have known whether Murry had heard the songs before? By his reaction? Again, Murry may have acted as if he hadn't heard the songs before, only because he had not heard them (especially "Surfin'") QUITE THAT WAY before!
By Cam Mott on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:29 pm:
Not that it proves anything exactly but according to Bud Shank's best recollection the tracks for his soundtracks for "Slippery When Wet" and "Barefoot Adventures" "were laid down at Dick's studio on Third Street". I'm not sure who "Dick" is {Keen?] but I believe World Pacific Studio was on Third Street in Hollywood.
By Textus (Textus) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:57 pm:
Never knew it would even be considered to gauge the factual accuracy of an account given to a teenager by a near stranger based on the nuance of Murry Wilson's emotional response to something.
This guy was over the top. That much every single person seems to agree on. He could have heard the songs 20 times, but if he liked what he heard or more to the point was covering up certain aspects of his personality to a client and his wife, he would have been really effusive. IMO anyway.
I love the Wilson brothers' music, but would not use any of their accounts as a touchstone either.
By Calsaga (Calsaga) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 09:59 pm:
According to Al Jardine, in an interview on LuxuriaMusic.com, they rented the instruments from "Hogan's House of Music" on Hawthorne Blvd.
Al also said that he first discussed the possiblity of forming a band with Brian the Summer right after they graduated from Hawthorne High at the Foster Freeze on the corner of Hawthorne and 120th. Then he said he didn't see Brian for about a year when they both attending El Camino.
Barb
By Cam Mott on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 05:25 am:
Despite discrepencies between Carl's account of 4 years after and 21 years after, the 3 accounts, Al in 2000 and Carl in 1966 and 1982, are in agreement on these major points.
Instruments were obtained that were used to record in a studio vocals and a track for "Surfin'" which included the bass fiddle played by Al. Isn't the session which fits these common accounts the one on Oct.3? Carl further associates these common occurences to "October-November 1961", were there any sessions for "Surfin'" in November 1961 with a string bass on the track?
Both Al and Carl further agree that the instruments used in this commonly described session were obtained while the Wilsons were in Mexico.
Neither the Havens nor Audree [in Leaf's book] say or imply that it was the first time that Murry had ever heard "Surfin'" when they returned from Mexico, only that the Boys played the song[s] with the "rented" instruments.
Since none of these instruments "rented" during the Mexican holiday were in evidence in the recorded act on Sept. 15, it seems to me that the holiday, the renting/buying of instruments, including a string bass, happened sometime after Sept 15 but before Oct 3 1961.
I get the impression that the instruments were both bought and rented. Carl says they spent the funds Murry had left on instruments and Al says his mother rented stuff because the Boys' money "was gone".
By Jeffretro (Jeffretro) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:59 am:
There is no Hogan's House of Music in the immediate Los Angeles area now, but there is one in Lake Elsinore. Possibly the same owner moving to a different, more scenic location as he got older? I don't know, but the phone is (909) 245-8700 if anyone wants to check it out.
Also, Wallichs Music City was a chain of music stores. It was also a record store; I remember my dad taking me to one in Cerritos (I think) back in 1965 or so to check out Beatles records because they still had listening booths.
And there was one in the South Bay - on Hawthorne Blvd. in either Lawdale or Torrance, in fact (referred to by a Class of '61 poster on a Hawthorne High message board as being next to Jody's Drive-In and across the street from the South Bay Galleria, which is still there). An easy drive of less than 5 miles south down Hawthorne Blvd from the Wilson residence.
Oh, and Cam - the guy who ran World Pacific Records (and produced much of their output, including Bob Lind's stuff) was named Richard Bock. Sounds like a Dick to me.
Jeff
By Cam Mott on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 05:13 pm:
Thanks Jeff.
Re. rent or buy: In Gaines' "H&V", Audree is quoted: "They used all the grocery money. They borrowed some from Mike Love, and they rented the mikes and bass. I'm not sure about the drums - I think they bought them."
So apparently it is probably correct to say the instruments were either bought or rented because both are true, the Wilson's buying and possibly renting some and Al's mom renting some. Therefore Carl in 1966 must also be referring to a period just prior to the Oct. 3 session for the Mexican holiday.
By Textus (Textus) on Monday, April 1, 2002 - 06:21 am:
Wallichs Music City. By 1941, radio repairman Glenn Wallichs had been running this store for a few years. I found a ref to it in a 1937 diary by someone quoted in a John Simon big-band history. Margaret Whiting refers to her parents and other Hollywood types employing Wallichs during her childhood. She was I think 15 when she was caddying for Johnny Mercer and three musicians I can't remember and Mercer spelled out Wallichs and his plan to start a record company. Wallichs apparently had figured out that a great record market existed among defense-industry workers who had slowed down on going out to hear live music because of tire and gasoline rationing. He would have known; he sold them all phonographs. Mercer was one of several Decca artists -- most of whom worked in the film industry or elsewhere in SoCal -- who were looking for a label that didn't begin and end with the success of Bing Crosby, and might have even seen an opp open up when the FDR justice department ordered Warner Brothers to divest its interest in Decca because it owned so much song publishing. (No one talks about the 1937 payola scandal, but there was one and Crosby was at its center.) That, and a similar antitrust ruling that forced EMI and Columbia to end a sweetheart distribution deal are much of what made Capitol Records possible.
Wallichs, Mercer and third (and more or less silent) partner Buddy deSylva sold Capitol in I think 1955 to EMI, at a point where the Eisenhower justice department had allowed several film studios to start up labels.
By Gene (Gene) on Monday, April 1, 2002 - 07:57 am:
I can still remember Wallich's radio jingle in the late fifties, early sixties...
(to the tune of "Rock-a-bye-baby")
"It's Music City,
Hollywood, Lakewood, Downtown..."
By Ed_hemingway (Ed_hemingway) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:21 pm:
There are three BB-related articles in the new Mojo Collections: an article on Holland; a short visit with Brian (in which the interviewer tells us that a Live in London cd is on the cards and that BW has re-recorded California Feeling...); a look at some rare BB-related vinyl.
For those interested, there are also articles on The Byrds, Zappa, Marianne Faithful and Lee 'Scratch' Perry.
The piece on Holland isn't bad, but I'd heard years ago that they were going to do a whole feature on the Reilley years and, unfortunately, they never got around to it
By AGD (Agd) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:02 pm:
The article on the rare BB-related stuff is ineptly researched and contains far too many errors, thus (from an Email I've just sent them):
Surfin'/Luau - the X 301 wasn't the first pressing; the correct release sequence was Candix 331, X 301, Candix 301. To explain why would take a small book.
Bob & Sheri - was not Brian's first production; the Rachel & The Revolvers 45 was both recorded and released a month before this single. Furthermore, Brian had been at college since September 1960, and had in fact just *dropped out*.
Kenny & The Cadets - were not Brian, Audree and a 'nameless friend' but Brian, Audree, Carl & Alan.
The Survivors - were not The Beach Boys under a pseudonym but Brian, Bob Norburg, Dave Knowlen & Rich Petersen. This was established over 15 years ago.
Basil Swift & The Seagrams - "Farmer's Daughter" is from The Beach Boys second album, not their first.
Heroes & Villains - the sleeve pictured is not worth anything like £400, more like £15. It was the standard US issue, with "You're Welcome" credited on the sleeve. The rare sleeve is the
one with pictures from the SMILE booklet. Most misleading.
Laughing Gravy - It's now thought exceedingly doubtful that Brian co-produced this.
He's A Doll/The Love Of A Boy And A Girl - was released in 1964, not 1969 as stated. And the Honeys released five singles, not three.
Expected better of Mojo.
By Harveywilliams (Harveywilliams) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 04:27 am:
I helped with the research of this article (& supplied all the records). I told Bob most of the above, particularly where there was any doubt or there were umpteen different versions of the same story (eg. Laughing Gravy, X/Candix, Rachel & Revolvers) but the story on some of the above still isn't fully told yet. Other mistakes (wrong H&V pic sleeve, Farmer's Daughter, He's A Doll) were just sub-ed errors, I guess. I didn't see the final article before it went to press, (in fact, I've still not seen it) but I wouldn't have expected to. Bob knows & loves the Beach Boys, so I thought I could trust him to get the facts right.
By ???? on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 01:39 pm:
Regarding the MOJO Collection tour of Brian's
home, what do you guys make of the cd that
the author saw laying out of its box on a coffee
table; "Brian Wilson: Unreleased
Compositions 1966-1995"...(?!)
Could this be the previously reported attempt
to outboot the booters? If so, then what would
be included?
I'm assuming that Smile is verbotten until
some future point, but does that mean demos,
Adult Child, the Usher sessions, S Insanity?
And is that cd merely a reference copy or an
actual template for a box set?
By Mikie (Mikie) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 07:21 pm:
AGD, there was another guy that sung on the Kenny & The Cadets single, right? Last name started with and A or something I think.
The rare Heroes & Villains sleeve is the one with the pictures from the SMiLE book. It has "Capitol 1001" printed on the sleeve. Tough to get.
Laughing Gravy was mostly Dean Torrence, was it not?
By Ed_hemingway (Ed_hemingway) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 02:00 am:
They've printed the reverse image of the Boys (Holland period) above the article - unless this was an subtle allusion to the reflected image on the front of Holland, of course...
By Phlip (Phlip) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 04:13 am:
Mikie: Brian Wilson ("Kenny") and Carl Wilson, Audree Wilson, Alan Jardine, and Val Poliuto (the "Cadets") were the vocalists on "Barbee" (written by Bruce Morgan, son of Hite Morgan). Although Brian also sang lead on the "flip-side" ("What Is a Young Girl Made Of?", written by Hite's wife Dorinda), Carl, Audree, Alan, and Val were not needed. Instead, a pre-recordeed track featuring female session singers backed Brian's lead.
Val Poliuto (one of the background singers on "Barbee") was a member of a locally-popular L. A. doo-wop group called the Jaguars. At a time when segregation and racial separation were the norm, the Jaguars were integrated (Val being the sole caucasian member of the group).
The Jaguars biggest local hit was their mid-1950's doo wop version of the pop standard "The Way You Look Tonight." In 1961, the Lettermen (with Nik Venet as producer, a year before he would sign the Beach Boys to Capitol Records) recorded the same song, and it became a big national hit. But unlike other L. A. R&B and doo wop groups like the Robins ("Riot in Cell Block #9"), the Penguins ("Earth Angel"), and the Coasters ("Yakety Yak"), the Jaguars never got a crack at the national stage.
In 1958, DJ Art Leboe (the Alan Freed of L. A.) formed a record label called "Orginal Sound." One of the first (if not THE first) of the artists to be signed to the label was a new group (created by Leboe) called "The Hitmakers." Among others, the Hitmakers featured Val Poliuto (from the "Jaguars") and Lester "Bobby" Adams (a member of another locally-popular doo wop group called the "Calvanes"). The Hitmakers' first record ("Cool School" b/w "Chapel of Love") was also the first release on the Original Sound label.
Leboe hired a guy named Rodney Gooden to be the lead singer of the Hitmakers, but only after first auditioning (and rejecting) some 15-year old kid from Hawthorne High named Brian Wilson.
By August 1958 (only two months after the release of the Hitmakers' first record), Bobby Adams rejoined the Calvanes, as the group signed with Hite Morgan's Deck Records label. A total of two Calvanes singles (four sides) were released on the Deck label over the next several months. Two more songs (including "Lavender," written by Dorinda Morgan) were recorded by the Calvanes, but were not released. The Calvanes could sing R&B, but could also duplicate the "white" sound of the Four Freshmen. They were still performing together AT LEAST as late as the 1990's!
By 1961, "doo wop" was on life support. Val Poliuto, however, found new life as a session musician (playing piano, and singing an occasional background vocal) for Hite Morgan at Deck Records. I can't say this for absolute certainty (I am not in proximity to any references this weekend), but I believe Poliuto was listed as a player on the AFM contract for the Beach Boys' February 1962 session that produced "Surfin' Safari," "Surfer Girl," "Judy," and "Karate" (or "Beach Boys Stomp"), in addition to his involvement with the "Kenny and the Cadets" track the following month.
By Mikie (Mikie) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 08:06 am:
Yeah, Val Polito was the guy I was thinking of, Phlip. It came up on the board earlier. Interesting last paragraph in your post above. Is that all in McParland's Recording Sessions book or did YOU come up with that? Good stuff!
I still don't have Steve McParland's book. I keep telling myself to get it, but have never done it. Must be mail order only, because it sure as heck isn't in any of the book stores in the Bay Area!
Does anyboy see my mistake above concerning the Capitol Heroes & Villains picture sleeve?
By Phlip (Phlip) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 12:27 pm:
Mikie: Shouldn't that be "Brother 1001"?
As far as my last paragraph is concerned, that info is from Stephen McParland's "Our Favourite Recording Sessions." I believe the book is only available through mail order, but I'm not sure.
One more thing about Brian's 1958 audition for Art Laboe (I spelled Laboe "Leboe" on the earlier post... sorry, Art...). The song "Chapel of Love" (NOT the famous one later recorded by the Dixie Cups, but a different one) was written by Art Laboe and Bruce Morgan, with an arrangement by Val Poliuto. Poliuto was responsible for coaching Brian and getting him to the audition (as a favor to the Morgans, who were doing it as a favor to Murry), and apparently Val allowed Brian to rehearse the song with the Jaguars (betcha Brian must have been thrilled!) prior to the session.
Get this.... Poliuto told McParland that Bruce Morgan has (or at least had) a tape of Brian's 1958 "Chapel of Love" audition with Art Laboe!
How would you like to hear THAT one? Talk about a first wave!
By Brad on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 02:29 pm:
Phlip wrote:
** I believe Poliuto was listed as a player on the AFM contract for the Beach Boys' February 1962 session that produced "Surfin' Safari," "Surfer Girl," "Judy," and "Karate" (or "Beach Boys Stomp") **
He's listed, but there's NO evidence on the session tapes that he actually participated. Poliuto played piano and drums, but there's no piano on any of the tracks and there's absolutely no doubt that it's Dennis on the drums. You also don't hear Poliuto in the vocal mix, either. If Polituo was even at the session, he must have been on standby, in case he was needed.
It's worth, noting, though, that there are all kinds of problems with that AFM contract. To start with, it lists not only the tracks that actually were recorded on Feb. 8, 1962, but also "Surfin'" and "Luau" (to get around the fact that no contract was filed for the Oct. 3, 1961 session). Second, there are four players listed: Brian, Carl, Al and Val Poliuto. Al's name has been crossed out, though, clearly indicating there was alteration of the contract AFTER it was initially filled out. So that leaves us with a question as to when Poliuto's name (it's the last name on the contract) might have been added. Was his added when Al's was crossed out? There's simply no way to know for sure, but judging by the fact that he's not heard on the session, you have to wonder.
** Poliuto was responsible for coaching Brian and getting him to the audition (as a favor to the Morgans, who were doing it as a favor to Murry), and apparently Val allowed Brian to rehearse the song with the Jaguars (betcha Brian must have been thrilled!) prior to the session. **
It should be noted that nobody else who was involved in Brian's early musical career remembers any connection between Brian and Polituo. That's not to say that the story isn't true, just that it's completely unsubstantiated.
** Get this.... Poliuto told McParland that Bruce Morgan has (or at least had) a tape of Brian's 1958 "Chapel of Love" audition with Art Laboe! How would you like to hear THAT one? Talk about a first wave! **
Poliuto's speculating, and there seems to be little basis for it. If such a tape ever existed, it doesn't now, and Bruce has no memory of ever having had it.
Brad
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