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Isn't there one theory from some reasonably serious people that the "piecemeal" production style Brian handled so masterfull with "Good Vibrations" simply became too much when attempted with a whole album? Particularly an album he was as his masterpiece? I've always sorta bought into that deal. Brian became overwhelmed by the sheer "mechanics" of attempting to put the thing together. Granted, I'm over-simplifying, I'm sure. But I reckon he put out a pretty good record (GV) not too long before the whole Smile deal fell apart. And Pet Sounds wasn't bad. But given the pressures of pop music reality, could even the most stable of human beings have managed to assemble that montage coherently in what would have been considered a reasonable amount of time? Now I'll admit that I'm more of a "Don't Worry Baby," "I Get Around" kind of guy, but the Smile thing is intriguing. The stuff on the box set doesn't quite blow me away, but in the right mood, it's pretty startling.

I think he got tired of it. It wasn't turning out quite like he had imagined. Yes, too many pieces, and some not fitting together all that well. For me, the shifts in "Worms" are jarring. Same for the long "Heroes." Feel free to disagree.

Well I intend to agree, Shanna. It's like he began a puzzle, and realized about two-thirds of the way through the thing, "Hey! There is a bunch of blue sky here and 10 zillion pieces, and putting the things together is going to take me a couple of years, which I don't have if I intend to sell record." Now I've always felt a little dense, when it comes to the Smile deal, because I've never been certain where "jarring" was planned and where it just happened. But I've never thought that Brian intended some of the extended material posited by a lot of folks. It seems to me that he was most happy and comfortable working in the traditional three to four-minute pop music format. After all, he accumulated hours of tape for "Good Vibrations" and still boiled it down to a typical pop song length. I think that's where he intended to go with the Smile stuff. For that reason, I've always thought "Rio Grande" was forced. The whole thing sounded pretty good. "Hey, the Smile genius is back!" But when did Brian actually release overly long material, other than in boots, whatever? I think Rio Grande came across sounding like something folks felt he *would* have done with Smile, and probably unlike the actual songs, had they been completed, would have been. This my lack of knowledge, S?

I've always disagreed with the "Brian got confused by Smile" assessment, actually. I think that although the album was recorded modularly, Brian had a pretty concrete idea of how ALL the pieces fit together. There wasn't a whole lot of random recording -- everything is recorded and logged as having a particular place in a particular song, and subsequent edits bear this structure out, too. It was only when Brian became unsatisfied with his initial concept for "Heroes and Villains" and began tinkering with THAT song did he start cannibalizing other parts of Smile.

THE PROBLEM: the reason the album sounds "jarring" to a lot of people is that you're not hearing BRIAN'S edits of those songs, you're hearing incomplete, speculative, and bootlegged unfinished edits by Mark Linnett from 1988 for the most part. Shanna mentions a "long 'Heroes'" -- which is just Mark Linnett editing together a few sections of the song in no particular order just to show how many sections there are, there is no long "Heroes," at least not edited by Brian Wilson. Mark followed Brian's template well, but frequently you're hearing versions from a compilation made by Mark to roughly show what a finished Smile might include. It's unfair to judge Smile from this standpoint.

SHAKETILLER: I agree, I don't think he was ever planning "extended material" with the Smile stuff, I think those songs would basically have all been 3 1/2 minutes long or less, and again, Brian's own edits bear this out.

In Endless Harmony Brian said something like, "I didn't think it was appropriate for our brand of music"; which i interpret to mean: I jumped too far then pulled back. There were a lot of coincidences that pulled Brian apart simultaneously: loss of confidence in the montage technique, loss of confidence in himself, too much LSD, Strawberry Fields (must have blown him away and pissed his confidence), hostility from the group, and record company hassles. Had Brian been on familiar ground and doing this kind of work for several years he might have carried on, but the other factors gave him an excuse to bail out.

I think you've nailed it pretty well, Jon. Now we can be pretty doggone certain that Shanna, there, understands that the deal wasn't Brian's, but I wonder whether Brian might have picked up on some of that "jarring" quality and become a bit frustrated? It's off the wall, I know, and certainly nobody will know, but I wonder whether Mozart ever wrote a long piece of music, said, "Dang! This ain't what it sounded like in my head, back then. I think maybe I'll just stop for some coffee." Don't get me wrong, here. I'm not trying to push this thing to its outer limits. But I've always felt that "Good Vibrations," while brilliant, thrilling, lacked some of the warmth of earlier BW tunes. Heroes & Villains seems the same. I wonder if Brian thought his music might be getting a bit too cold as he further tinkered with the engineering, cut-and-paste aspects of the work? I will concede, though, that "Wonderful," while it felt a little ice cubish on Smiley Smile, felt positively like a wool sweater in other iterations, which certainly supports your view.

Jon--point well taken. We really don't know what the structures of Heroes or Vegetables would have been. Or Wind Chimes? Or Surf's up even? Or Child?

This always brings me back to my frustration with Van dyke Parks. Surely he knew the most (after Brian) about final structures. He was writing the lyrics.

Ol' Van is pretty impish my nature, right? At least, his musical work would suggest. I think he enjoys the mysterious aspects of the thing. Wish he'd sit down and write a book, maybe. I do think, of all the people who were or who are close to Brian Wilson, he seems to be the least in awe, the least intimidated. He just smiles, folds his hands, looks a little goofy.

Van Dyke? Impish? That's not the half of it! Let me tell you about the time we had a card school at Atlanta Airport when we were delayed by fog for a couple of hours.

Hank Briarstem (north), started with the 3 of Clubs. Brad Elliott (east) played the Jack of Hearts. Mike Love (south) then found himself in a potentially winning position with an ejusdem generis 2 of Spades. Ideal play would have been for west (Van Dyke), on laying his card, to have established a pre-emptive proclamation of ‘Snap’, thus successfully forestalling South and sealing the game.

West’s actual move was a hoarse exclamation of ‘Oh sh*t!...Yes...Me...God, it’s on the tip of my tongue!...Bingo!...No...Check!...Oh, bugger!’ accompanied by a vigorous flourish of the arms which caused a glass of red wine to be spilled over South (Mike).

South now had several choices of move. Firstly a defensive strategy, videlicet, a wet sponge accompanied by salt energetically applied to the embryonic stain. Secondly, an attacking strategy, viz. a violent physical assault on West, accompanied by possible support from his partner, North (Hank Briarstem).

In the event, South opted for a combination - an attacking move with his East fist in the direction of Brad Elliott whilst North supported him in defense and sponged down his trousers. The outcome, therefore, a ruled no contest and da plorum strategem.

Those of us who were watching were only too aware that Van Dyke had engineered the entire incident in order to divert attention from the true contents of his hand luggage.

I think it's fair to say that there were problems that had nothing to do with business, drugs or family members that involved crossing the 3:33 point using modular songwriting. They might have involved the limitations of a two-sided 16-20-minutes per side LP. They might have involved some simply aesthetic or program decisions. For instance, several things (what Carl used on 20/20 but also Barnyard, Vegetables and Wind Chimes) group into the Cabinessence theme, but is Cabinessence a setting within a H&V narrative? Similarly there are character pieces that could be construed as interlocking (Wonderful, Bald/Speeches). Are they in fact characters in a H&V narrative? Or is H&V as we know it a third character piece for the narrator of the whole damn thing?

I think there reached a point where this simply didn't work on vinyl, and that it wouldn't have worked if Brian had stayed drug free, the Boys hadn't sued Capitol and Mike had seen a six figure film deal implicit in releasing the thing.

Steve

This sounds reasonable to me. Steve's deal, not yours, Nick. You know damn well that VDP simply couldn't be bothered with Mike's whining if he had beaten him for the umpeenth time at cards. Wish I'd seen the game, though.

The thing I've always thought when confronted with Smile material: How could it ever have worked? Because I don't think Brian would have released anything other than "traditional" pop songs. Brilliant, perhaps, but not album side-length suites. Pop songs.

Nick, did Mike really cheat at cards?

My question is who started wearing bow-ties first, VD Parks or Nick Rodgers? Has anybody seen the Bruce Johnston quotes in the new Endless Summer Quarterly? (whoops, another question) This guy isn't going to be finished until he gets a full symphony orchestra version of Cuckoo Clock. Plus he says he's been "writing." Hold the presses!

Textus, any chance that Lennon's Mind Games was a sneer at the Smile mythology?

Steve:

>>> Several things (what Carl used on 20/20 but also Barnyard, Vegetables and Wind Chimes) group into the Cabinessence theme

Huh? How? I think you're imposing a perceived theme on top of those pieces -- "Barnyard" was recorded for H&V, "Vegetables" is its own thing, and I don't see how Wind Chimes is part of a "Cabinessence Theme..."

Brian's own mix of Cabinessence from December '66 was similar to Carl's '68 mix...

>>> Similarly there are character pieces that could be construed as interlocking (Wonderful, Bald/Speeches)

Again, this is you imposing a perceived connection where one may not exist.

I still don't think any of it was going to cross the 3:33 point.

MAYYYYBE H&V at one point.

With the caveat, Jon, that you know a lot more than I do about whole portions of this stuff, please understand what I'm saying as much as the individual things I've said.

The fact that we have good evidence of a completed Cabinessence with "just" the "Home on the Range" stanza, the 3/4 variation of "Bicycle Rider" that is "Iron Horse" and the "Grand Coolee" coda doesn't mean that those themes don't group with others. The most profound theme in C'e is that of technology chasing an individual or couple who is attempting to flea civilization into the wilderness. I simply think the three things I mentioned could fit in there, but also think that this idea could reflect the place where the narrator of H&V resides when he talks about being assumed lost and unknown by those in the city.

by the way, do you realize how rare pictures of coolee labor working on the intercontinental railroad actually are? If such a picture did, in fact, inspire Brian, then he did a *whole* lot of looking. More likely, imo, he read about the scarcity and posed the question in the coda.

Sure, I perceive a connection and by stating it I impose it. And it might not exist. My own SMiLE search has involved that tendency. Always has.

That said, the two aforementioned songs are definitely character sketches, and I am not alone in thinking the man in Bald/Speeches is a suitor of the woman in Wonderful. I might be alone in thinking that The Tempest inspired the whole thing, but I'm not alone in connecting those two character sketches.


Funny you should mention John re SMiLE. Consider these lines:

. . . What makes you think there's something special in your SMiLE?
Childlike, no one understands . . .

I hadn't thought about Mind Games, but I was a little freaked to see the parody remarks about John and Brian writing songs to each other. I had been working along that line seriously for a while. Brian told a friend of mine that they never met, but I've placed them togehter I think three times at this point -- including once in 8/65. Caveat there is that a/the woman who was with Lennon that particular week told me, "If I met Brian Wilson then, he made absolutely no impression on me."

Steve

Didn't Mickey Dolenz say in his book that Lennon and Brian were at a party in Malibu in the mid to late 60's, and stood next to one another staring out into the ocean without saying much? Dolenz suspects they'd dropped some LSD.

Not speaking as a "SMILE" scholar, just as a Brian Wilson (and Beach Boys fan):

1. "SMILE" was NOT too complicated to have been completed in January 1967.

2. Brian never considered producing "SMILE" as a solo album (unfortunately). Unilaterally loyal to the other Beach Boys, Brian always saw "SMILE" as (alas) a BEACH BOYS album.

2. As Textus points out, a single record LP recorded in 1967 had space for AT MOST 20 minutes per side. I can't see there being any lengthy "Heroes & Villains Suite" or "H&V Part I" and "H&V Part II." Once Brian decided to format the album with the traditional standard number of tracks (12 or so), the length of the final version of "Heroes and Villains" was fixed at about 3:30. Especially if H&V was seen by Brian as the follow-up single to "Good Vibrations." Brian's main problem with H&V was figuring out how to cut it to 3:30 and still keep the "Baryard Billy" plot clear (which was impossible), while keeping the original "feel" of the track (which he seemed to do with the so-called "cantina" version).

3. Because of the time restrictions inherent in the vinyl LP circa 1967, there would have been A LOT of out-takes. In fact, more out-takes than released material. Which of course means that 35 years later, we'd still be begging Brian to "RELEASE THE REST OF IT!" Most of the bootleg stuff we've heard over the last few years would have ended up on the cutting room floor.

4. What Brian really needed was an external deadline. Having the mercantile meanies at Capitol Records breathing down his neck was a good thing for Brian the artist (although probably not for Brian the human being), and this constant pressure (together with the voices of Mike Love, Murry Wilson, Phil Spector and The Beatles echoing in his head) was a BIG part of the reason we see Brian Wilson as some kind of Mozart today... and here's another one of the biggest mistakes the Beach Boys (and Brian) ever made... forming Brother Records... Brian NEEDED Capitol Records, because some all-powerful bad guy had to tell him to FINISH THE DAMN ALBUM!

5. ANY Beach Boys album released in January-February 1967 containing the mega-hit single "Good Vibrations" would have been a BIG hit. The further removed from "Good Vibrations"
(the single), the less chance for a commercially successful album. And for "SMILE" to have been accepted as Great Art (at the time), it would have HAD to have been released BEFORE "SGT. PEPPER'S LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND" (annointed The Greatest Album Ever Made when it was released).

6. "SMiLE" might not have made sense to the more-traditional old-time Beach Boys fans, to Capitol Records, or to some of the Beach Boys themselves, but I believe the music would have made sense to a lot of other people, and "SMILE" would have become a big part of the "Summer of Love," with the Beach Boys headlining at Monterey Pop...

I think that the only completed SMiLE song is Good Vibrations. None of the other material from that album are end products.

I have no idea what songs like "Do You Like Worms" and "Child is the Father of the Man" were supposed to sound like- but I think it is safe to say that they have NEVER been heard in their completed forms. I doubt that they ever will be.

I think that Good Vibrations is the only indicator we have of the quality of that album. I believe that the other tracks would have been of similiar production quality (ie. excellent), but probably less 'pop' orientated and more lyrically complex.

Lets be honest- the real reason he didn't finish it was down to a nasty combination of drug addiction and mental illness. I think he was clever enough to do finish it at the time, but he just had too many personal problems. Although Good Vibrations took 6 months to record, I've heard stories that it could have been recorded much quicker if Brian had not been so distracted.

I DO think that things would have been easier for him if he had access to 21st Century music editing software !!!

Maybe so, re the software thing. But I think we just disagree on the other. I think the project in his mind didn't finish because it wouldn't finish. Admittedly, the drugs didn't help.

And I do think that, even though the single was advertised on the album, that it was really pre-SMiLE in the same way that SJB is pre-PS.

"You're Welcome" is completed, whatever that's
worth. Recorded during the SMiLE era, but released
as the B-side of SMiLEY SMiLE's "H&V" single. I
hope that's right, anyway....

Obviously wish there was more!!!!!!!

One could reasonably argue that Cabinessence and Our Prayer were finished, even though they were overdubbed and remixed for the 20/20 album.

Wait a minute, I thought Til I die and Surf's Up were part of Smile.

Regardless, I agree that it was Brian'a loss of confidence more than anything else. If Pet Sounds had shot to Number 1 as it should have, and if then Good Vibrations had shot to Number one in the US (I know it went number 1, but not as fast as in England)as it should have, we would have had a supremely confident Brian, which is how he has to be and how he was for Pet Sounds. Brian had lost his confidence by Good Vibrations, which is why he did it a zillion times.

Brian has said that he thinks songs should be short. Was it is intention to do a "real" symphony? In symphony form? Or was maybe his idea of a teenage symphony something more like a concept album, like side one of Abbey Road. Where they all just fit into each other. People have called Pet Sounds a concept album, but I never saw it that way, and I believe Brian has said in interview that it was not a concept album. So he had not yet done that. I have no idea, just speculating because I haven't read up on it. I am not familiar with all the bits and pieces of Smile, but couldn't it have been put together that way?

In any event, Brian lost his belief in himself and I think that's why it was not finished--had he had confidence he would have worked it out.

Till I Die?!?!

'Till I Die was recorded for the Surf's Up album, released in 1971, Gina. Half of Surf's Up was recorded for the Smile album in 1966, then finished in 1971 for the Surf's Up album.

Jetman-

I think "Cabinessence" is clearly complete, and far superior to GV musically. Also, the cantina H&V doesn't need anything else and the section of "H&V sections" starting with the a cappella bit after Bicycle Rider and ending just before the cantina fade-out is pasted on (in a-a'-diversion-a''-a''' form, a mini T&V) only needed an ending.
I don't see anything missing (musically) from You're Welcome, Prayer, Do you like Worms, and I love to DA-DA, either.

That last title reminds me:
A lot of people talk about the "jarring" or "piecemeal" feel of some of these songs,
but they clearly have to be understood from a dadaist perspective.

I don't see how you can say Worms is complete without a lead vocal over those alternating piano chords.

Steve

I've never found any of them jarring. The abrupt musical transitions between parts just sound...interesting. Atypical. Not altogether out of place in the 60s. No more jarring than, say, "Day In The Life" or "Lucy In the Sky" which also flirt with those kinds of jarring transitions.

>>> I think "Cabinessence" is clearly complete

I agree. I know that Brian's initial edit just had one run-through of verse/chorus/tag, but the lyrics clearly bear out an additional run-through. Interestingly, I think there were additional sections tracked at a second tracking date but never used -- probably the "reconnected telephoning" lyrics. The version we have is, I think, about what Brian had narrowed the song down to by December '66, and is the result of one day's worth of consecutive, chronological tracking.

>>> I don't see anything missing (musically) from You're Welcome, Prayer, Do you like Worms, and I love to DA-DA,
either.

Well -- "Da Da" had a 3rd part that was never recorded (you can hear the musicians playing a bit of it during a "Da Da" session) and also had a re-record of the second section that Linnett chose not to use for whatever reason.

"Worms" is probably missing a lead vocal, and I quibble a bit with Linnett's edit, but the basic structure is there, and WAS there in a BW rough edit.

"Child" is missing a lead vocal but Brian's '66 edit of the song is a 3 1/2 minute song with verse/chorus structure and makes total sense. Not jarring in the least.

"Surf's Up" isn't FINISHED but the structure, again, is there, and Brian did a demo of it to prove it.

"Old Master Painter" is a bit of a toss-up but there's three segments, the musical elements are all present, and it's up to you whether there was more than one repeat or not.

"Wind Chimes" I think is finished in the Linnett assembly. There's a Brian edit that's identical to this, but is a little sloppier, clearly a rough assemblage. Mark cleaned it up.

"Wonderful" might be missing a tag, but is basically finished otherwise in the initial "harpsichord-only" version. The "Rock Me Henry" version -- who knows?

"Vega-Tables" -- the April version was finished, it's up to you how it was meant to be edited together. There was probably an earlier version that wasn't quite finished.

"You're Welcome" -- quite what this was for is up in the air, but it's clearly finished in the "Smile" version. B-side to H&V perhaps?

That leaves "The Elements," which Brian clearly knew HOW it was going to work but never got 'round to doing it, and "I'm In Great Shape," which is likely just a chunk or chunks of "H&V" taken out in December and might just have needed a final edit.

I don't see where the inability to finish comes into play, or confusion with the multitude of pieces, except maybe in the case of "H&V." The rest of the songs were either finished, edited, and needed lead vocals (or maybe HAD 'em and we just haven't heard 'em), or else just recorded and in rough-edit form and needed a final edit and a mastering. Only a couple songs remained unfinished, and the parts were clearly written and ready to roll (i.e. Surf's Up.)

I think, having considered the options, that dissatisfaction with the musical style might have been Brian's key killing factor. This is the topic of ongoing debate on the Smile board -- but the sessions bear out that he wasn't a drugged-out mess, Mike's dissatisfaction with the lyrics mightn't have had the impact people think they did, the sections were clear and ordered and confusion probably wasn't the key...so...

..Brian himself has said he came to the conclusion it was "inappropriate music for the group" and ditched it, this seems the most likely reason, actually.

Were VDP's contributions completely "finished"?
Could Brian have finished Smile without Parks?

"I think, having considered the options, that dissatisfaction with the musical style might have been Brian's key killing factor. Brian himself has said he came to the conclusion it was "inappropriate music for the group" and ditched it, this seems the most likely reason, actually."

Jon, I agree with you. After all these years I just can't figure out what there is to debate though. The reason why SMiLE was junked came from the horse's mouth. Brian said SMiLE was influenced by a lot of hash (pot) and he got "too beside himself with the music". He said it wasn't Beach Boys music. That's it in a nutshell. What else is there to say? I can't figure out why all the speculation continues. Will this be a continued ongoing debate after it's eventually released? I guess people just love to talk about it. I've listened to it for 20 years and knew why he didn't release it after Leaf's book came out, then confirmed after I saw the '76 NBC Special when Brian was asked about it. The reason why the thing wasn't released seems to be as important as the track line-up and what fragment/section went with what. Don't mean to play down SMiLE's importance, (it was) but when will all the speculation come to an end? Maybe never.(?)

I agree with all of the above. (Awesome post,
Maestro Hunt!)

Also, wasn't there a weird quote that stated the
band" didn't want to be perceived like the
Monkees" and wanted tro play their own
instruments? Hence some of the same SMiLE tracks
revamped w/the boys playing on SMiLEY? Of course,
this was also supposedly done so the"old" tracks
would jive with Brian's new home studio tracks.
The lack of session players ('cept for SMiLE era
excertps of "H&V" and a couple others present on
SMiLEY), plus the way band members were
specifically credited--track by track--on the
SMiLEY record could point to this.

Possibly another of the several contributing
factors.

Band members were credited track by track on Smiley Smile? Where's that Maestro Dale? I'd like to see who played what on that record.

Smiley Mikie (not Mike Smiley).

>>>> I think "Cabinessence" is clearly complete

>> I agree. I know that Brian's initial edit just had one run-through of verse/chorus/tag, but the lyrics clearly bear out an additional run-through.

Are you talking about the one on the Vigotone set? That one is lacking the complete lead vocal. The lead has not been recorded before 1968, has it?

>>"Child" is missing a lead vocal but Brian's '66 edit of the song is a 3 1/2 minute song with verse/chorus structure and makes total sense.

Brian's edit is 2:56 long.

>> "Vega-Tables" -- the April version was finished, it's up to you how it was meant to be edited together.

The recording was finished, but not the mixing. Brian's mono mix attempts, if they are complete, show him struggling with the correct way of mixing and editing it together.

>> There was probably an earlier version that wasn't quite finished.

Can you tell me what you are referring to?

>>That leaves "The Elements," which Brian clearly knew HOW it was going to work but never got 'round to doing it,

Fire seems to be finished, a mono mix with sound effects and the ending edited on. Okay, it is only "part 1" of The Elements, but this part was done.

>> I don't see where the inability to finish comes into play, or confusion with the multitude of pieces, except maybe in the case of "H&V."

But H&V was a case where he actually did finish it, even twice, in February and in July. The versions of course cannot quite satisfy, if we consider the sections not used for these edits.

>> I think, having considered the options, that dissatisfaction with the musical style might have been Brian's key killing factor. This is the topic of ongoing debate on the Smile board

It has not been debated there for a long time, probably because no new facts have come to light.

>> -- but the sessions bear out that he wasn't a drugged-out mess, Mike's dissatisfaction with the lyrics mightn't have had the impact people think they did, the sections were clear and ordered and confusion probably wasn't the key

Exactly. So...

>> ..Brian himself has said he came to the conclusion it was "inappropriate music for the group" and ditched it, this seems the most likely reason, actually.

Interesting that Brian never ever composed or recorded anything like SMiLE in his career, with the possible exception of Rio Grande, which seems to be more of a forced affair.

Some terrific posts here. Thanks.
Got me thinking. I have never been much
of a fan of "Worms" --mainly because those
brutal opening measures (for me) don't hold
up on their own (the piano chords mentioned
by Textus). But gee, you mix that down
and put a strong vocal line over it (think
of the opening measures of "Heroes"--the
vocal line) and you've got something. Leading into "rock rock roll ... plymouth rock."

How about this. Brian doesn't remember
much today, right? But perhaps...he can
bring back...the main melody of the opening
of a major song...

Let's say David Leaf sits Brian down, asks
him to close his eyes...and plays the opening
of "Worms" saying..."Brian, what melody are
you singing oveR this???? And back it comes
from the depths of memory. Brian's lips part
and a vocal lyricism fills the room.

This is going to sound really stupid, and it doesn't totally work, but it kind of works:

Go get your recording of Worms and sing along the lines of the introduction to Cole Porter's "Anything Goes." The first half goes (elipses to make up for memory lapse)

Times have changed . . .
Since the Puritans got a shock
When they landed on Plymouth Rock

(((Rock Rock and Roll Plymouth Rock Roll Over
Rock Rock and Roll Plymouth Rock Roll Over)))

If . . .
Instead of landiing on Plymoputh Rock
Plymouth Rock had landed on them

(((Rock Rock and Roll Plymouth Rock Roll Over
Rock Rock and Roll Plymouth Rock Roll Over)))

Note that VDP arranged said song for Harper's Bizarre album that has Chatanooga Choo Choo standing in for Iron Horse.

Steve

Textus. Excellent. Gold Star.

And please try this: use two machines,
on one play the "bells and whistles" bit
which (I think) is a piece of H&V;

On the other (cueing the beginnings to
be synchronous) play the "grunting--Swedish
meatballs" bit.

They are the same length. They both rise
to a climax. And I think they are
properly superimposed. And sound great
together.

Jon/Andreas et al.,

Imagine that you were a music historian who had never heard any SMiLE material. Then one day, a bootlegger passed you the first three months of 'Good Vibrations' sessions. You would assemble the edits into a playing order and have a song that sounded pretty much complete. It would probably sound fantastic- and you could announce to the world that you had discovered a great new track.

Of course, we know that in reality Brian had another 3 months of sessions planned. The track that sounded great after three months of work became mind-blowing when another three months were added. In other words he had a "magic touch" which enabled him to turn ordinary music into brilliant compositions.

My feeling is that most of the SMiLE material is like Good Vibrations after three months work. The structure of the song is there (in some cases) and to lesser-mortals it might sound complete. But Brian never had chance to wave his magic wand over it and made it "special". It is all half-baked and only part of the story.

I don't think that in 1966, a sane/sober Brian Wilson would have accepted songs like "Do You Like Worms" and "Old Master Pinter" as finished quality. These are just the rough sketches on his musical canvas. I'm sure he would have added the colours later.

Well Jetman "Do You Like Worms" is one of the most advanced , experimental and just plain weird things ever created in pop music. It's structure owed nothing to anything that had come before or since and although the individual sections seem to have virtually nothing in common with each other it still works as a complete piece.
I agree that almost every track on a finished "Smile!" would have sounded slightly different but i think that it's all pretty much there already.
In my opinion everything on "Smile!" is awesome. Brian was on fire @ that point + everything he did WORKED.

Mikie: I gues what I meant about "band members
credited" is the stuff on the back (if the old CD
I have, anyway) that states:

"Heroes and Villains"
featuring Brian

"Vegetables"
featuring the group

"Fall Breaks..."
Instrumental

"She's Going Bald"
featuring the group

"Little Pad"
featuring Carl

"Good Vibrations"
featuring Carl

"Wind Chimes"
featuring the group

"Fettin' Hungry"
featuring Brian and Mike

"Wonderful"
featuring Carl

"Whistle In"
featuring Carl

Of course that probably points more towards vox,
but wtf. Maybe I just wasted a whole lotta time...
Still like part of that theory though!

Gotcha Dale. Yeah, I'm sure that's the credits for who sung what. I'm sure various members of the group played the instruments on Smiley Mile, but I thought maybe you had a list of who played what.
I'm also sure your theory is dead on, chap. Interesting, the quote that they didn't want to be perceived like the Monkees, which prompted them to want to play their own instruments. If that's the case, that carried on into subsequent albums.

And Dale, that wasn't no waste o' time man!

I too have heard Brian's stated reasons for junking "SMiLE," but then why was there a "SMILEY SMILE"? Why record new versions of "Heroes and Villains," "Wonderful," "Wind Chimes," "Vega-Tables," and "He Gives Speeches" if the music "wasn't right for the group"? From what I have read and heard, "SMILEY SMILE" was recorded at Brian's house while the group was under the influence of some primo hashish, so it wasn't like "SMiLE' was a "druggie" album, and "SMILEY SMILE" was "drug-free."

My opinion is that when Brian said that he did not believe "SMiLE" was right for the group, it was Brian's way of saying that the other Beach Boys were more concerned with writing the lyrics themselves or playing their own instruments than they were with recording the best possible album. "You guys sing, I'll do the rest" was no longer acceptable to the other Beach Boys. Brian received too much resistance (or shall we say not sufficient support) from certain principles involved, and this lack of absolute support (which for better or worse Brian needed at the time) led to Brian's decision to "junk" the "SMiLE" album. Not the SONGS, just the RECORDINGS.

Brian Wilson: "THE GROUP ALMOST BROKE UP, ALMOST SPLIT UP FOR GOOD, OVER MY DECISION NOT TO RELEASE 'SMiLE'" -- from "The History of Rock and Roll" (1968).

As David Anderle once said, "Nobody should be allowed to say 'no' to Brian Wilson." You know, like how Brian says that if people keep bugging him about something, he won't do it. Or if forced, he'll do it, but without making any real effort. A classic passive/aggressive response.

So after they realized that Brian wasn't going to finish "SMiLE," the OTHER Beach Boys panicked, concocted the compromise that became known as "SMILEY SMILE," and convinced Brian (probably by means of guilt trip) to go along with it, the beginning of Brian's voluntary creative surrender to the other members of the group...

"OK. Sure. I don't care. Whatever you say. You know more than I do about making hit records. You guys can play your own instruments. Mike can write new lyrics to some of the songs. We'll record it at my house. The record will say 'PRODUCED BY THE BEACH BOYS'. We won't have a 'leader'. Whatever."

>> Why record new versions of "Heroes and Villains," "Wonderful," "Wind Chimes," "Vega-Tables," and "He Gives Speeches" if the music "wasn't right for the group"?

Maybe those were the songs that seemed to appropriate to Brian? I do not understand the decision either, Fall Breaks And Back To Winter is as un-BeachBoys as it can get, but Brian must have felt that Do You Like Worms and others were not right for the group, but other songs were acceptable.

LSD might be an explanation. Brian wrote She Knows Me Too Well under the influence of marihuana, but some SMiLE songs were probably the result of LSD experiences. So he dismissed all songs written under LSD, but never had any reservation against marihuana, hence the relaxed, stoned Smiley Smile instead of the energetic psychedelic SMiLE versions.

>>so it wasn't like "SMiLE' was a "druggie" album, and "SMILEY SMILE" was "drug-free."

Different drugs, different worlds for Brian maybe.

>> My opinion is that when Brian said that he did not believe "SMiLE" was right for the group, it was Brian's way of saying that the other Beach Boys were more concerned with writing the lyrics themselves or playing their own instruments than they were with recording the best possible album.

Do we know that the Boys wanted to play the instruments themselves? Or did they simply do what musical director Brian W. was telling them to do?

>> "You guys sing, I'll do the rest" was no longer acceptable to the other Beach Boys.

But they did not have a problem with this on Today, Pet Sounds or Good Vibrations? Also, SMiLE was more concentrated on complex vocals and hrmaonies and less on complex and full orchestration, so it involves more contribution from the Band than on the previous albums.

>> Brian received too much resistance (or shall we say not sufficient support) from certain principles involved

...which is a speculation and not a fact...

>> and this lack of absolute support led to Brian's decision to "junk" the "SMiLE" album. Not the SONGS, just the RECORDINGS.

And some of the songs completely, like Fire, Surf's Up, Do You like Worms or Cabin Essence. Why not rerecord Cabin Essence, maybe without the "crow cries" line? You may say, Brian did not want to corrupt these masterpieces, but that is what he acually did with Wonderful and Vegetables, but I see no logic behind using some SMiLE recordings, re-record some songs and completely scrap some of othe best songs? I have no theory for this, other than Brian's "feel", which songs were appropriate for the group and which not.

>> Brian Wilson: "THE GROUP ALMOST BROKE UP, ALMOST SPLIT UP FOR GOOD, OVER MY DECISION NOT TO RELEASE 'SMiLE'"

As already said, this sounds more like the group wanting to release SMiLE.

>> "Nobody should be allowed to say 'no' to Brian Wilson."

Who said "no" to Brian? Mike did sings all the controversial parts, he did not say "no".

>> Or if forced, he'll do it, but without making any real effort. A classic passive/aggressive response.

Sounds more like the Brian of the 70s to me. Brian in the 60s was creative and ambitious. Even after Smiley, did he step back? Two albums were relased in 1967, both featuring almost solely compositions by Brian, and he was the arranger and director in the studio, without a doubt. Another one in 1968. Not exactly effortless.

>> So after they realized that Brian wasn't going to finish "SMiLE," the OTHER Beach Boys panicked, concocted the compromise that became known as "SMILEY SMILE," and convinced Brian (probably by means of guilt trip) to go along with it

Brian wrote Getting Hungry, Little Pad and Fall Breaks, he produced all the songs, even the rerecordings (no matter what the credits say, the session reveal Brian still in the leadership position).

>>the beginning of Brian's voluntary creative surrender to the other members of the group...

Which was not happening at all on Wild Honey and Friends. Surrender is a suggestive word, couldn't it be that after recording Wild Honey and Friends, he was somehow empty, simply because of the creation of so many albums from 1962-1968? A creative spark can vanish or fade, this happened to McCartney and Simon as well.

Is it possible that we can view the Good Vibrations experience as a template for SMiLE and that, at the time, Brian did S/S to buy time in the same way legend has it that he did with Party! for PS?

And that "not yet" became "never" as the events of the next three years unfolded? I find the serial number info for Brother interesting (SS 9001, SMile 9002, Wild Honey 9003) and also find it interesting that someone -- I have no idea who, but who was it who once said "I love the tin woodsman?" -- did a Brother album in Capitol's regular numbering some time in late 1967 doing Wizard of Oz songs. There's a review of this in a Decmeber 1967 issue of Saturday Review, actually a joint review of it and S/S in a section on children's records.

And I am serious about the above paragraph. This isn't me being dumb and writing fiction. Back at the house I have it photocopied. Something like the West Coast Pop Workshop is listed as the artist.

Anyway, I think the decision to never release it came some time in 1968 or even 1969, despite whatever else we've read.

And by the way, all of us need to hear "no" at times. I sure wish someone had said "no" back then to Lyndon Johnson.

Steve

Gina, re. Brian's loss of confidence. I agree but I don't think the charts were the cause. I think Brian had always been on the edge of a breakdown and something pushed him over during Smile, which i believe was the realization that he had burnt himself out through too much work in a short space of time.

Another factor was people calling Brian a genius, which led to Brian tinkering with techniques that frankly (and literally) scared him. I don't think Brian ever wanted to be a Mozart and the comparisons drove him to withdraw.

Finally there's the old story about the artist who can only create when he is not self-conscious. All the "genius" talk made Brian too introspective and Smile was too up-its-own-arse as a project to really work in Brian's favor.

Smile was not in Brian's interests: it was too un-Brian, period.

To use a film analogy, Brian once worked liked Alfred Hitchcock, carefully planning and story-boarding most every "frame" of his production. With "SMiLE," he was working more like a French New Wave director, where you keep trying new things and hope to God it cuts together in the end. That working method often results in an inability to produce a cogent finished product. Luckily, with "Good Vibrations," that method worked perfectly. But that was only one song. Maybe a whole album of songs done like that was/is a bit much to complete. Maybe Brian just got sick of the whole thing.

I found one thing very interesting. Someone said that you could sit Brian down @ a piano get him to pound out those opening chords of "do you dig worms". If he closed his eyes and really concentrated the vocal might come to him.
I think we need Hank Briarstem to give us some kind of indication as to what these long lost lyrics might consist of.

Nahhhhhh.

To whoever said that Brian's edit of "Child" is 2.56 not 3.30 - get your tape deck checked, it's running way too fast.

Jon, I think that like a lot of artists, the condfidence in his art battled with personal low self-esteem. The Murry Factor. When you have written your masterpeace and America shrugs its shoulders...it's going to more than sting a little. So he starts Good Vibrations, and he has lost such confidence that it takes forever. He is no longer trusting himself. I agree with whomever up there said(and they were quoting someone else)that you don't say no to Brian Wilson.

It's been a while since I read the books, so I can't keep the sequence of events straight, but Murry was doing what he could to destroy Brian, and the BBs did not like where he was going with Smile, he fell in with the wrong crowd...and as you said, Brian was fragile to begin with. It may be that he became self-conscious. An artist has to be the right combination of self-confident and self-critical. He has to be able to be intuitive at one level while being practical at another. Brian surely got very unbalanced.

But I disagree with you on this point: I don't see Smile as Brian's reach exceeding his grasp. Much of it is fabulous and does indeed sound like Brian to me. (To tell the truth, H&V [the basic song]) is the one I like least of the mostly finished stuff. So if Jon Hunt is right that that is the one that distracted Brian, I wish he had thrown it out and concentrated on the rest.)

If he intended short pop songs, that was real do-able. If he was going for a real symphony, I can see him givimg up.

But I don't understand why we don't know which it was. Like someone said, VDParks would know. Why hasn't anyone asked him? Seems like an obvious question.

Doesn't anybody on this board know someone who knows someone who knows VDP?

Asking Van Dyke the obvious is a guarantee that you won't get the answer you want (no disrespect to a fine gentlemen, but that's just the way he deflects questions about Smile), but since you ask, during recent conversations it can be inferred that most of Smile would have been comprised of short, selfcontained songs (but I wouldn't call them pop songs), no crossfades or segues between tracks, no extended suites except for the obvious.

Gina I didn't say "his reach extended his grasp." My intention was not to imply that Brian wasn't good enough to do Smile ( he did Pet Sounds which is an infinitely better album) but that Smile was not his KIND of material. Brian doing Smile was like a poet trying to write Ulysses, or a painter trying to do sculpture. That's my opinion.

As for Van Dyke, was he actually THERE when Brian ditched the album or had he already taken a backseat by then? VDP has already said he did not write a note of Smile, so why should the lyricist be around during the recording sessions?

Indeed, Van Dyke has stated that when he attended the "Cabinessence" vocal session to explain the lyric to Mike (not) he was making an exception but then again as lyricist he must have had a good idea of how long the songs were going to be, unless he wrote lyrics by the yard and let Brian cut the cloth.

Jon i think we all know that you don't like the Smile! material very much. It's easy to say that Brian was just getting too arty farty and not staying true to himself etc etc but the truth is that the Smile! material is some of the most advanced , most unusual and most amazing music ever recorded. He was doing incredibly beautiful and brave things with melody , harmony , rythmn + production. The lyrics are largely a matter of taste (although i do love them personally) but let there be no doubt that the music is amazing.
Brian was at his absolute creative peak. "Today" and "pet sounds" were stepping stones towards Smile! musically. There will always be people that prefer the raw honesty and spiritual love of "pet sounds" to the somewhat contrived and tongue-in-cheek "teenage symphony to god" that is the Smile" music but as far as i'm concerned Brian was on FIRE @ that point and everything he touched seemed to work. He admitted that during Smile! he was @ the point where he was actually enjoying the complexity of the music.
I'm actually a bit sick of talking about Smile!. It is just awesome.
Brian said that Smile! would have been as much of a leap forward from "pet sounds" as "pet sounds" was from "summer days" and i for one think that in terms of ambition , studio mastery , stupidly complex vocal harmonies , beautifully intricate arrangements + strange tempo changes and transitions etc etc that it probably would have been.

If VDP said it, I believe it. He would have to have heard the music to write the songs. Brian had and has a lot of respect for VDP and someday we are going to know more about that whole situation from Parks.

Dominic, you are in luck, for those lyrics, those timeless words, were spared the fire, as it were, and if you are contemplating melody, dream of Jeannie (who was very beautiful in blue and when her hair fell to her shoulders to cover my face.

Best, Hank

Nightcrawlers in spades
Crawling Beatles, Love tirades
Darkest night, pitchest black
A million summer nights and mites in a sack
Only Potted Meat to make my treat
If I were oatmeal, I'd be Cream of Wheat

Who oozes gooze
Nothing to lose
No one to intrude
Late at night, in bare moonlight

Thermos filled with lemonade
Shoes rubber souled, he went bald
What a fright, glaring light
A million Frosted Flakes and milk in a bowl
If we'd potted Mike we'd be alright
(All together now)
If I were okra, I'd be southern fried

Who oozes gooze
Nothing to lose
No one to intrude
Late at night, in bare moonlight

Egg salad on wheat
Rolling Stones at my feet
Cast my line, Love is blind
A million surfer girls around the world
Even Potted Meat can't take the heat
If I were Elmer, I'd be stuck on you

Dig it dig it
Try a little bit now
Sneaking snaking
Pass the Lowenbrau

Worms go in, worms go out
Turn 'em in, turn 'em out
Unleash the flashlight
I want to gig some frogs
A .22 will do
Or a gig will flip your wig
Either way, it's frog's leg's baby
Try 'em fried with redeye gravy
Dig 'em gig 'em

I'm getting wormy, germy
Taciturny

Hey Bri, this what you want?
I dig worms

Who oozes gooze
Nothing to lose
No one to intrude
Late at night, in bare moonlight

Who oozes gooze
Nothing to lose
No one to intrude
Late at night, in bare moonlight
Late at night, in bare moonlight

taciturny?! Oh my.....i never thought i'd see the day....i bow to you, Hank!

I am a mere hunk 'o' hunk 'o' taciturny love, my dear.

Ummm ... Was I the only one who noticed that Shake posted as "Hank" a couple of posts up? I wasn't aware that he had ever publicly acknowledged that the sometimes controversial identity was his. Did I miss something?

Not at all, Brad. I'm one of the Hanx. Kinda honored, though, that it was you caught me in the error.

"if I were oatmeal I'd be Cream of Wheat" hmmm , think they got their roughages all mushed up ? Eagle-eye Elliot (if I may call you thus ) , good'un . Think Mikie just cracked open a beer ? Shake/Hank how do you like your 'gooze' cooked . Just a tweak , so to speak . I mighta made it " If I were Elmer my name would be Fudd "

If I weren't Bungalow I might not be so gung ho .

RE: Smile
It took Brian 6 months to find the slow section for Good Vibrations- (Sept. session, I think)without which that would be one boring song. He rarely found that kind of contrasting section which would provide variety for the other pieces; hence either they just go on and on, or they are crudely interrupted by ill-fitting or unpolished sections. Others have mentioned all the various possible other factors, but I haven't seen a mention on this thread of Van Dyke Parks. In an interview at the VD Park web-site (Bicycle Rider?) Van mentions that he started recording "Song Cycle" in early 1967, about February or March (I think ); this would coincide with him leaving the 'Smile' sessions. It's possible that Van didn't understand hoe fragile Brian was, as he has often stated how surprised he was that it was not released. So perhaps Brian just didn't write/polish those sections because of time,Capitol, Mike, drugs, etc. but also because Van was gone, and Van was the co-creator of 'Smile'.

What's finished on the tapes? The earliest pieces are the most finished (let's remember that 'Good Vibrations' was started before Van came on the scene, even though he suggested the cello, and Brian asked him to write new words for it, an offer he declined). Surf's Up' does go on and on, but it is a finished song, though not a finished recording. Also, I think 'Wonderful' (ditto). But other than 'Prayer', which is wordless but complete, Brian doesn't seem to have finalized the musuc for any of the other songs/ pieces. Van probably finished his words in May or June for most of the album, but he was a popular session musician and played keyboards at some of the Smile sessions; he mah have hung out at a few others, although he has said he didn't like to just attend.It's probable that Brian just liked having Van around, for support and as a soundboard, but when Van left (twice) to begin his own album (after working with Brian for about 10 months) Brian collapsed. I think it's arguable that Smile was unfinished because Brian had a breakdown, and also that Brian had a breakdown because Smile wasn't finished.( As Brian said:
"I had to destroy 'Smile' because it was destroying me".

Finally, I recall Chuck Britz stating (in the Leaf book) that he was very dissappointed in the 45 release of 'Heroes and Villains'. I think this is a serious criticism coming from a man who had engineered 95% of Brian's music since the demo for Capitol in 1962, and who knew Brian's musical aesthetics like the back of his hand. Chuck had engineered the original 'Heroes' from May '66, and he also engineered the second version from December '66 and January and February of '67. Talking about the 'Heroes' he recorded with Brian, Chuck stated:

" It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song.Then, I understand, they went up to his home, and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of (Brian's) pool to get the pool quality.They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. Our (version) ran about five or six minutes; it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations'. It had some great melodic lines. The arrangement was so full, and it was just something that I was very dissappointed in when I heard the final product." (p. 114, Leaf)

We can glean several things from this statement:

1. Heroes was probably never finished, as Chuck says "...it could have been..."
2. The 45 had a thinner sound than the original.
3. Britz thought it a better "song" than 'Good Vibrations'.
4.The original ran about 5 or 6 minutes long.
5. Brian had lost his artistic compass.

In addition, I recall Chuck saying somewhere that the original "...moved from beginning to end..." (i.e. none of this oddball stopping and starting as on the 45).

By the way, if anyone is interested, I created a little chart of 'Smile' sessions and releases (as I knew them in about 1989) and this chart was printed in the 1995 revised edition of the Priore book ('Look,Listen,Vibrate,Smile') on p.271. It's interesting, I think, to see a more visual representation of the flow of time and events from that special and strange time.

sincerely,
Anthony

Damn, Anthony, that was a good post. This has been about the best SMiLE thread I've ever seen on this board. Not to be a Cornball here, but I've learned a lot from reading these posts. Seriously, the only one I can remember being as good as this one was Boxer Monkey's thread a few months ago. The one where we correlated SMiLE tracks with Smiley Smile tracks and I wondered why Brian didn't use the original Smile material he already had in the can for the Smiley Smile album. Part of it was his home studio (where Smiley was recorded, sans Good Vibrations and Heroes & Villains) didn't have the same sound as Western and Goldstar I guess.

Bungalow, when I saw Brad's post, yeah, I felt like crackin' open a brewski. It reminded me of what Brian said during the California Girls sessions: You're grass and I'm a lawnmower!

Wow! That's a great chart anthony! And equally
great post! It's been a spell since I cracked that
book open. Very cool seeing the dates laid out
like that. Thanks!

Well this has been a good thread. Ol' Brad and I go way, way back on these boards, when I was the original Trader, The Artist Formerly Known as the Trader, Jim Thompson, and finally just "JT," which I'd still be, had it not been taken. And one thing I'll say for the boy... though I'm sure he might become annoyed, from time to time, like many folks, I've never known him to attack anyone on a message board or to be anything less than respectful. So that's why I appreciated his "Gotcha!" It's not because he's Brad Elliott the historian. Just because he's Brad Elliott who's always treated me decently, even invited me to a Texas Beach Boys fest one time. Decency is a valuable thing.

Anthony: DAMNED insightful post, m'man. And that chart has been, btw, an invaluable reference when looking up dates.

>>> 1. Heroes was probably never finished, as Chuck says "...it could have been..."

Or else was "finished" several times between December and March -- there's a "finished" Feb. 10th version, and probably several "finished" february and march versions somewheres.

>>> In addition, I recall Chuck saying somewhere that the original "...moved from beginning to end..." (i.e. none of this oddball stopping and starting as on the 45).

I'm very interested in where this quote appeared, if you can dig it up it'd be most appreciated. It's something I've pondered for quite a long time: that basically you can figure out with reasonable certainty an "order" for the longer March H&V by studying starting and ending keys for various sections. I agree, the thing was constructed to flow smoothly from beginning to end, and the hurky-jerky quality of the single is the result of revision and re-revision.

>>> By the way, if anyone is interested, I created a little chart of 'Smile' sessions and releases (as I knew them in about
1989)

Still damn accurate to this day!!!

Y'know there's a board entirely for Smile obsessives, if you're interested in stopping by ever.

http://pub20.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?usernum=1652474346

We're insane, but don't let that bother you.

A message for Jon and and other smilers:

Jon, damned if I didn't find that quote! It's from a book caled "The Beach Boys", (great title) and it's by Byron Preiss. It was published by Ballentine in March of '79; it was an "Authorized biography" but that didn't seem to hurt it too much.(It's well worth searching out if you don't have a copy.)

p. 60;Chuck Britz:

" I was there for "Good Vibrations" and then "Heroes and Villains" which was as big if not bigger than "Good vibrations" in its original form. I thought it was a fantastic song, a great, rich full song. It was just a full-sounding record and the voices blended right in like an extra part of an instrument. We had our basic unit- an organ, drums, basses and giutars. Most everything we did had the same amount of basic intrumentation. I think there was a harpsichord in the back of the room and a harp played by Mike's sister, Maureen... The version we did originally was just voice holds and no gimmicks, (like where they drop out the orchestra and do an organ thing for a solo)... it moved from beginning to end."

This quote implies (heartbreakingly) that the recording was finished.It's too bad that noone to my knowledge interviewed Chuck after Leaf and Preiss did in the late 70's. Sadly, when Chuck was dying in the hospital last year, Brian apparently did not visit him.

A fellow who might be still alive and who has got to be a fount of information is Jim Lockhart, the Western Studios engineer who became the first Brother engineer in '67. Here's his comment on "Heroes" from the Preiss book:

" We had the complete song, but they just wanted to use part of it. Brian wanted to change what had been done on the rest of it. I think he wanted instrumentally and vocally to make it more complex. I think he wanted to finish the song, it was a challenge to him. We went and re-recorded (from where we started off the old tape) the rest of the song at the studio in the house.We did the parts and the music tracks and most of the guys played their own instruments. It was done in pieces and the vocals were done to complete the song."

Lockhart also talks about recording "Vegetables" with Paul McCartney present, so he was present for at least some of the original "Smile" material...and his comments seem to indicate that "Heroes" was not finished after the "Smile" sessions at Western had finished.

The whole thing is a paradox, as usual. Lockhart should be interviewed again, very precisely...

Thanks Jon for your kind comments... I should mention that that little chart I prepared was totally based on Brad Elliot's research.

sincerely,
Anthony

P.S. Love the "Smile Shop"!

Anthony: Thanks for tracking that down! I've never read the Preiss book, don't have it, can't find it, but Jeff Deutsch is a frequent board contributor and frequently brings out relevant quotes as needed...

I find little bits of that quote VERY interesting.

>>> We had our basic unit- an organ, drums, basses and giutars. Most everything we did had the same amount of basic intrumentation. I think there was a harpsichord in the back of the room and a harp played by Mike's sister, Maureen...

Er, huh? I'm thinking about the Heroes tracking we've heard, and at this point we've heard all of the instrumental tracking bar one or two choice fragments, and I can't think of anything with a harp, especially played by Mike's sister. And that "basic unit" -- that's an odd comment, and fails to mention the tack piano that really drives many of the segments...not to mention the string section that features in the verse, the "prelude to fade," the original chorus recording...

>>>The version we did originally was just voice holds and no gimmicks, (like where they drop out the orchestra and do an organ thing for a solo)...

Huh. This is an unusual quotes -- "voice holds" -- I wonder what that's referring to? Presumably that the voices were what bridged the sections together, not unlike the final single but probably more accurately attempted. Is he saying that dropping out the orchestra and doing an organ thing IS a gimmick, and WASN'T included? Or that it ISN'T a gimmick and WAS included? Again, huh.

>>> it moved from beginning to end."

There we go. Moved from beginning to end. Implying a logical, linear structure of a kind that no version we've heard thus far posesses.

I agree someone should interview Lockert. I'm right now trying to set up an interview with Stephen Desper and Hal Blaine and hopefully Al Jardine and Dianne Rovell -- forgot about Lockert, I bet he's an invaluable untapped resource!!

I have the Preiss book, which at the time (heck, now as well) I consider(ed) to be a group response to the Brian-centric argument of Leaf's tBBntCM. It has some more detail, but it does have a tendency to make more sense of that detail than is merited. (Everyone who deals with my posts on same will note that the kettle is, in fact, black.)

Is Preiss reliable? Perhaps more so than Gaines, not as much as Brad, I'd split hairs to say whether he or White is more reliable as they simply reflect different facitonal points of view.

Note that Byron Preiss was(is?) at heart a comic-book artist/editor/publisher. Howard Chaykin got valuable early work for Preiss before becoming whatever he became with American Flagg. He might have been the first real purveyor of the graphic novel. He was a Nat Lampoon cartoonist in the early days, if memory serves.

Steve

I don't think the Byron Preiss book was an "argument of David Leaf's book at all. If anything, it complimented it. I always liked the pictures in the Priess book, especially Dennis sitting on a half moon and the Beach Boys depicted as animals with Al as a duck and Brian walking off on his own. I recommend the Priess book to anybody that can find a copy - it's been long out of print.

Oh, I enjoy it. But it is cleary intended to compete w/the Leaf book both commercially and argumentatively. It frames much of the same information, with more inside touches for validity's sake, to the better for the Love faction.

Steve

Add my 2 cents to the Preiss kudos. This book has the best collection of Beach Boy art ever. The 15 Big Ones illustration of the boys singing doo wop on the corner is spectacular and the series of watercolors depicting the Pet Sounds songs is really cool - David Leaf missed that set when he put the PS tour booklet together - it would have been a great addition.

Great SMiLE artwork as well!

Admin- this has been one of the most thrilling and informative threads I have EVER (and I mean that) read on Smile, or anything Beach Boys related. Who said that the board had gone to pot- this has reaffirmed my faith in the white board. Anyways, could you archive this one when it runs out of steam? You could publish this!

P.S. I want to contribute, but everything that I want to say has already been said in far greater detail and eloquence than I cold ever muster. Thank you for adding some brilliant music to my day.

Consider it marked for archive!